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Any Nutritarians Out There?

Hello, I was wondering if there are any fellow Nutritarians out there?  If you are unfamiliar with the term, a nutritarian is someone who bases their diet on the most nutrient dense foods available.  It is based on the work of Dr. Joel Fuhrman who has written many books on the topic.  

 

Hope to meet a few here,

Donna

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147 REPLIES 147

@Daves_Not_Here@Bogdel,

 

Dave, that's an excellent question. First, let me say the McDougall Maximum Weight Loss program and Dr. Fuhrman's program as outlined in "Eat to Live" are quite similar. They seem to rely on a large calorie deficit that does not result in a nutrient deficit because of calorie density. Both programs give approximately the same weight loss per week and the same health benefits. If you saw a buffet of both programs, it might be hard to tell the difference.

 

It's easier to see with a specific example. A pound of broccoli has about 153 calories and costs about $1.50/pound locally. For 2,000 calories, it would cost $19.50/day. Nobody is going to eat 13 pounds of vegetables. The cost of a variety of vegetables will be somewhere around $1.70/pound. However, because vegetables are so nutrient dense, a person can do quite well with a large deficit, even below BMR. There won't be any hunger feelings or any nutrient deficiencies. 

 

I'll use one example - vegetable oil. It is 120 calories/tablespoon and no nutrients but fat. Well, an overweight person has plenty to spare. A skinny person can get enough in plant form. There are zero other nutrients in the oil. Vegetable oil does have the side effect of increasing cancer risk. If a person consumes a tablespoon of vegetable oil, they are losing the opportunity to eat little less than a pound of nutrient loaded vegetables or starches. Starches are nutrient dense, but not as much as leafy vegetables.

 

The rice I buy costs $2.99 for 20 servings or $.015/serving. Each serving contains 170 calories. The cost per 2000 calories is $1.76. Rice, potatoes, oatmeal, couscous, quinoa, barley, beans, and others cost about the same per 2,000 calories.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I used to do the diet, I am very into his work. Do you follow the diet now??

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@GershonSurge & @Daves_Not_Here

Thanks for detailing the difference between Dr. McFougal and Dr. Fuhrman's approach to health. While they are very similar, they are different in the sense that McDougal's approach is basically vegan, while Fuhrman's approach is nutritarian. While oil, pasta, and white patatoes are all vegan, both their caloric and glicemic indext is very high, and their nutritional value is very low. On the contrary, kale, broccoli, and other green, leafy vegetables have very low caloric and glicemic index and very high nutritional value. Logic tells me that if I want to be healthy and fit, I should maximize the consumption of foods that I high in fito-nutrients and minimize the consumption of products that are low in nutrients and high in calories and sugar.

I just saw the picture below, and I thought I would share it with you both. 

http://www.veasydney.org/health/caloric-density-weight-loss/

Have a great day!

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@Bogdel,

 

Dr. McDougall has been using the same concept of calorie dense vegetables for decades. It's one of the key concepts for losing weight. 

 

Don't make the mistake of calling Dr. McDougall's way of eating vegetarian or vegan. He is quite clear there are junk food vegetarians and vegans. It also helps to be aware of what he calls sugar. I wish he wouldn't do it, but he often calls complex carbs sugar. He does allow a small amount of surface refined sugar for flavoring, but most lose the taste for sugar.

 

You have to take the white potatoes approval in the context of the WIC program where they can buy bacon bits, but not potatoes of any kind. Children in schools are limited to one cup of carbohydrates a week, but allowed to eat pepperoni pizza and drink milk. White potatoes are nutritionally complete and a person can be quite healthy eating only white potatoes with a tiny amount of oil. (I don't know the reason for the oil). Dr. McDougall points out that sweet potatoes are a better choice.

 

The biggest question I have about Nutritarianism is the high cost compared to a way of eating where a large number of calories come from healthy starches. Perhaps you could address that.

 

 

 

 

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@GershonSurge, I don't know if you had the opportunity to watch the docuseries iTrive. It was offered for free recently. The producer of the documentary (a morbid obese and diabetic) went across our country and interviewed most of the well known experts in nutrition, including McDougal, Gregor, Furman, and many others. In one of the interviews, McDougal said that "people like to hear good news about their bad habits". My assumption is that the reason he allows a bit of sugar or white potatoes is because he knows that most people find it difficult to renounce them. So, if they can still have that, they are more prone to make changes in other areas, such as exchanging animal products for vegetables. I did not hear him talk about junk vegan, but I am convinced that he is aware of the difference. What I like about Fuhrman is the fact that is is not sugar coating his teaching. He classifies very clearly the different kinds of foods that we need (carbs, protein, and vitamin/minerals). He then classifies the nutritional value of foods from each category, and makes recommendation of what kinds of foods are unlimited, what kinds we should eat in limited amounts, and what we should avoid. Looking up the complex carbs on the internet, I found this link, which I hope you will appreciate: 

https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/simple-carbohydrates-complex-carbohydrates#2

 

I don't know where you learned that potatoes have high nutritional value, because all the authorities in are area of nutrition clam the contrary. More than that, Only by renouncing the starchy vegetables (and adding some exercise to it!) I lost all the excess weight that I had, and I was able to maintain it for 2+ years. At the other side, every time I gave myself permission to have some carbs (share a pizza with my husband), the scale went up immediately, and so did my blood sugar.  I don't deny that potatoes have some nutrients in it, but the proportion is very small in comparison with the starch and sugar that it contains. Potatoes do give us energy, because they contain a lot of macro-nutrients, but if we don't burn that energy immediately, it will eventually turn into sugar and fat. In addition, most of the times we eat potatoes, we tend to ad things to them that are also bad for us (butter, sour cream, or oil). 

 

Now about the cost of eating nutritarian: I have been doing this for over two years and I did not find it expensive at all. On the contrary! I don't know where you live and if you have a Sprouts Farmers Market there, but that's where my husband and I are buying most of our groceries. Unless we buy a lot of nuts (which tend to be a bit more expensive), the vegetables are very inexpensive and flesh; and they have weekly discounts on some produce that would otherwise be more expensive. For example, bell pepper and avocado tends to be more expensive, but they have frequent sales when we can buy two or sometimes three for a dollar. My husband is not a nutritarian, although he did replace the unhealthy starches and the things that go with them, with healthier alternatives. He eats some kind of meat every day, for dinner. I only eat fish, every once in a while. He is still using the 2% milk. I replaced that with nondairy milk (almond and soy milk), although I mostly use it in my coffee or green tea. I rarely eat breakfast. Basically, our monthly groceries are no more that $500 for both of us. We always make two large bowels of salad with mixed vegetables, and have that in the fridge for a few days. Think of it: 

 

Lettuce -- $1/bunch 

Kale  - $1/bunch 

Carrots - $1/lb

Celery -- $1.29/bunch 

Green onion - 2 bunches/1$

Spinach -- $1.49/ bunch (we usually buy 2 bunches - I make spinach soup, and use it in the salad)

Cabbage - $ 0.5/ lb

Green bell pepper - 3/$1 (on sale right now)

etc. 

______________________

Total: $7.00 for a week's worth of groceries for two people (we use most of the above in our salad, and add some nuts, or avocado, or dried cranberries/ raisins to it when we serve). My husband uses dressing, as well. I don't feel the need for it. 

 

As far as legumes, they are pretty cheap, too. We can buy any variety of beans, peas, or lentil with less than $2/lb.  With 1 lb. of beans, 3 carrots, 3 celeries, and 1 onion I can make a big pot of bean soup and have it all week. That is less that $10/week. 

 

Of course, we buy other products, as well, including dairy and nondairy milk, but the cost is as reasonable as the things mentioned above. Needless to say, the things we buy are full of micronutrients, the fill our tummy, provide the nutrients that we need, and we lose weight in the process, too. Not to mention the healing power that is in every ounce of plant that we eat. 

 

The thing is that we spend most money on are the nuts and seeds, and we do eat lot of them every day (especially my husband). But even so, the groceries for both of us are under $500/month. This is much less than when I was eating meat, and pizza, and pasta, and all the things that go with them. 

 

I hope this answers your question (smiling). Have a great day!

 

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@lifejunkie, who are you asking? Be sure to type @ and select the name of the person you address, to ensure that you get an answer. 

I am following a Nutritarian lifestyle (I don't call it diet, because it is much more than that). It has changed my life. 

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@Bogdel,

 

I'm confident Dr. Fuhrman's way of eating does all the things he says it does. I think I've discovered the source of conflict between him and the starch group. It's his insistence that starch is bad for us. In my opinion, he is looking at the wrong variable.

 

In his book, "Whole," Dr. Campbell arrives at the conclusion that there is only one ratio that overrides everything else. That's the amount of animal food eaten/whole plant food eaten. That's it. Mechanisms don't matter as they can't be known. The relationship is solid all the way down to zero. 

 

Let me give an example based on they Boyd Orr research started before WWII. Dr. Fuhrman referenced it in "Eat to Live. The study came to the conclusion that eating fruits and vegetables at a young age may reduce cancer later on. The study concluded there was an association between eating vegetables and fruits and reduction in cancer later on in life. It attributed it to anti-oxidants. Based on Dr. Campbell's work, I'll suggest that those who ate fruits and vegetables at fewer animal products. I'm guessing the raw data for this excellent study is still available to research scientists. Maybe they would draw a different conclusion if they looked at the ratio of whole food plant products/animal products. It may be a big enough group to test the value of anti-oxidants. (I'm not suggesting anti-oxidants are not beneficial). 

 

I found this video about carbs and nuts by Dr. McDougall's nutritionist, Jeff Novick. He points out that the studies often referenced compared nuts to refined carbs with vegetable oils. The results were negligible. We agree refined carbs are not good for us.

 

You gave the standard argument surrounding complex carbs: Complex carbs break down into sugar. Sugar turns to fat. It's scientifically incorrect. This is based on a study done on lab rats in the 1950's. Rats have a process called de novo lipogenesis that makes this possible. Humans do not. We can't turn carbs into fat except in tiny amounts in starvation condition. Excess carbs will make us more energetic and encourage us to exercise more. If people stay on the couch, the cells will vibrate and generate heat in a process known as thermogenesis.

 

I found Dr. Fuhrman's nutrition pyramid. The Whole Food Plant Based diet can quite easily fit inside of this pyramid with the exception of the animal products. 

 

Keep in mind, Dr. McDougall started curing cancer in 1980 with his way of eating. Actually, it may have been a bit earlier as Mary McDougall, Dr. McDougall's wife, created the menus for the Pritikin Longevity center that opened in 1976. I'm not clear on exactly when this happened. Dr. Campbell's studies were focused on curing cancer. Dr. Esselstyn focused on curing heart disease. They all cure type 2 diabetes 100% of the time. They all prevent, arrest or cure most degenerative diseases. The percentage differs with each disease.

 

For Dr. Fuhrman to claim starches somehow increase the incidence of these diseases is just wrong since all the ways of eating above have virtually zero incidence. I'll keep listening to his videos to see if he actually makes this claim. I know his way of eating is healthy, so that's what's important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@Bogdel,

 

I wanted to add the context to Dr. Fuhrman's reference to the Boyd Orr study.

 

Most Americans are not aware that the diet they feed their children guarantees a high cancer probability down the road. 13

Fuhrman, Joel. Eat to Live: The Amazing Nutrient-Rich Program for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss (Kindle Locations 356-357). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition.

 

It's in an excellent section called "Killing the Next Generation."

 

 

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@GershonSurge, I totally agree. I follow Fuhrman's principles, all the way. My husband, jokingly, calls him my "Guru".

 

BTW, have you ever watched the documentary Forks Over Knives? I just watched it last night on Netflix. I think it's worth watching by all of us, who are interested in health and nutrition. 

 

Back to the question you asked earlier about the cost of a Nutritarian lifestyle:

1) It is really less expensive than SAD, or any kind if diet I know. 

2) Those who think they save money by eating unhealthy, will spend much more on meds and hospital bills later on.

3) The abuse of our body will cost us much more by the damages it will cause to our body, and the trouble it may bring to our families.

In short, responsible eating will save pain, money, and a lot of trouble to us and our family (including our children). 

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@Bogdel,

 

I have seen "Forks Over Knives." I take the title to mean "Fork or Scalpel?" Unfortunately, the medical, pharmaceutical, hospital and food industries as well as the government and politicians would prefer everyone choose scalpels. Keep in mind that through taxes, the government has a 15% interest in all profitable businesses. More if you consider the taxes people who peddle unhealthy foods make money, too.

 

I bought "Fast Food Genocide" by Dr. Fuhrman today after listening to one of his videos. I'm just getting started on the book.

 

Thanks for detailing your costs. The difference in our budget amounts to about an ounce of nuts a day. The differences between the ways of eating amount to nuts, a hill of beans and a white potato that isn't even stressed as the most beneficial by Drs. Campbell, Esselstyn, McDougall, et. al. 

 

I strongly suggest buying and studying "Whole" By Dr. Campbell. It starts as a book about food, but it ends up explaining why modern studies are generally useless. I do categorize the current mess with food as genocide. I feel the people perpetrating this genocide should be tried and executed with "death through fast food.  Even the Germans fed their inmates better.

 

"Even the Germans fed their inmates better" is a shocking statement. Not many know that Nathan Pritikin had access to then secret documents concerning the camps. His way of eating is somewhat patterned after the prisoners who had little evidence of today's degenerative diseases. 

 

Time to get back to reading. 🙂

 

 

 

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@Bogdel,

 

Nutritarian or McDougall (Tonight's supper)

 

Nutritarian or McDougall?Nutritarian or McDougall?

Description:

Bed of brown rice topped with pinto beans. The pinto beans have onion stalks picked fresh from my garden. Topped with about a tablespoon of flax meal and kale.

Around the outside is a grated blend of nine high nutrient vegetables. 

Oranges on the bottom.

Handful of peanuts on the left.

 

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@GershonSurge, LOL! This looks more like a McDougall recipe to me. It is healthy all right. There's just too much starch for Fuhrman's style, as I understand it. Fuhrman would probably make the bed of kale, topped with beans and a bit of wild rise. 

           "Around the outside is a grated blend of nine high nutrient vegetables". 

These are not very visible on the plate. "Nine nutrient vegetables" is a lot. They should really fill up the plate, in my opinion. I just had my dinner salad in a Ninja jar. It really filled up the tallest jar that I have - full of goodies! Unfortunately, by the time I wanted to ad some beans to it, there was no more room in the jar.

 

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McDougall, Esselstyn, CampbellMcDougall, Esselstyn, Campbell

Clearly not Nutritarian, but this is my usual first breakfast. Dr. McDougall would say "All large, healthy, and long-lasting populations had a starch centered diet." I'm not so sure about this, but I will agree this was true of all the blue zone populations.

 

If I wanted to lower the glycemic index, I could add butter to the oatmeal and whipped crème to the strawberries and blueberries. Not a good idea for health. Why not?

 

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@GershonSurge wrote:

Rats have a process called de novo lipogenesis that makes this possible. Humans do not. We can't turn carbs into fat except in tiny amounts in starvation condition. Excess carbs will make us more energetic and encourage us to exercise more. If people stay on the couch, the cells will vibrate and generate heat in a process known as thermogenesis.

To say that a study on rodents does not necessarily apply to humans is one thing. To claim that because one study on de novo lipogenesis was conducted on rodents proves that de novo lipogenesis does not exist in humans is an entirely different thing. In this case, the claim is just plain wrong: there’s plenty of scientific evidence that humans are perfectly capable to storing ingested carbs as fats via de novo lipogenesis. Just check these studies on PubMed: De novo lipogenesis in health and disease, Carbohydrate metabolism and de novo lipogenesis in human obesity, Effect of carbohydrate intake on de novo lipogenesis in human adipose tissue etc. etc.

 

I try to picture what happens (according to you) to the typical sedentary person who overeats junk food: he’s eating pizza, hamburgers, cookies, ice-cream etc., all foods that have all the macronutrients in excess (for his low activity level). His body (again, according to you) is somehow able to filter out fats and proteins and store these directly as fat, because we know (thanks to Dr. McDougall et al.) that fats and proteins are intrinsically plain bad (never mind that proteins are even harder to convert to fats than carbs). Then we’re left with carbs and that person keeps vibrating and dissipating them as heat on his couch. LOL! So he’ll eventually become overweight, then obese, but that’s entirelly because of the excess in the "evil" fats and proteins, and the "good" carbs make no contribution whatsoever to the fat storage? Really?

 

The truth is all macronutrients can be stored as fat, when consumed in excess. And conversely, you can consume large amounts of fats and protein without gaining weight, as long as total calories consumed are matched by your energy expenditure.

 

Likewise, all the talks on high-glycemic vs. low-glycemic carbs may be relevant to people who are insuline-resistant (typically the overweight / sedendary population), but not so much for normal weight active people who have no problem regulating their blood sugar the way it is designed to be. I for one consume plenty of high-glycemic carbs, some on purpose (workout shakes), some for hedonistic reasons (I like to indulge in sugary stuff, within reason). No need to vibrate on my couch to dissipate them as heat: my activity level takes care of them.

Dominique | Finland

Ionic, Aria, Flyer, TrendWeight | Windows 7, OS X 10.13.5 | Motorola Moto G6 (Android 9), iPad Air (iOS 12.4.4)

Take a look at the Fitbit help site for further assistance and information.

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@Dominique,

 

In the first two "studies" only the abstract and background are available. They aren't even studies. They are position papers. The third study was done on nutritionally depleted patients with the carbs injected intravenously. It proves the point that only a small amount occurs in nutritionally depleted patients.

 

Someday, you really ought to read the books and videos I recommended instead of commenting incorrectly about what Dr. McDougall said. He didn't say proteins are converted to fat in large amounts. He didn't say lots of things you have claimed he said in the past.

 

You also ought to read Dr. Fuhrman's books to see what he says about glycemic index. It's more complex than "Don't eat potatoes." 

 

Anyway, what you are doing is what Freud called "Narcissism of small details." You blow one thing I've said out of proportion and make a big deal about it. Then your conclusion is "eat meat and dairy." It's a common ploy those who don't want to "Hear bad things about their bad habits." Sorry, but I don't have time to play that game when you won't read the research. Yes, it's extensive. That's the way it is.

 

Meanwhile, I'll spend my time reading more of Dr. Fuhrman's writings and the research he references.  

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@Bogdel,

 

Thanks for your commentary on my plate of food. It actually meets the area of overlapping criteria for both Dr. McDougall and Dr. Fuhrman. The rice is less than 20% of the calories. The important thing to me is if these items were served in a buffet, we could both eat the healthy foods we prefer.

 

 

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@GershonSurge,

"The important thing to me is if these items were served in a buffet, we could both eat the healthy foods we prefer."

Agree. There is an overlap between the two. As long as they had nutritarian food in the buffet, we could each fill our plate with the desired ingredients.

 

Although I heard McDougal speak in some of his debates and documentaries, I never took the time to read any of his books. I was too satisfied and committed to Fuhrman's teaching. In fairness to him, and inspired by one of your previous messages, I just purchased McDougal's book, "Whole". I know that he, just like Fuhrman, has helped a lot of people reverse their diseases. The vegan and SOS principle is a common ground that they do have. 

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@GershonSurge, Your breakfast is pretty close to the nutritarian breakfast that I eat, when I do (based on one of Fuhrman's recipes). I use only 2 tbs of oats, 1 tbs of chia seeds, 1 tbs of ground flax seeds, and let them soak in almond milk. Then, I add 1/2 banana, 1/2 cup berries. I mix them all in one big bowel. This provides a bit of everything, and it is pretty filling. 

 

What if we added butter and whipped cream? We would ruin it and, unless we do something to burn it right away, we would add some saturated fat to our hips (and arteries). When it comes to oils and fats, Fuhrman says that they go "from our lips to our hips". 

 

That's a good breakfast you have. Try adding some chia and ground fax seeds to it. BTW, are you using any kind of milk with it, or just water? 

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@Bogdel,

 

"Whole" was written by Dr. Campbell. You will gradually learn why most research reports published during the last 20 or 30 years are rubbish. I think he is closer to Dr. Fuhrman than Dr. McDougall. It's hard to tell without looking at more recipes.

 

I'm surprised my breakfast was close to Nutritarian. I don't add anything to the oatmeal. I get my flax later in the day. I only use water. A half cup of oatmeal and about one and a quarter cups water. I like it watery. No sugar. 

 

In the past few days, I finally learned a good way to cook dried beans. I'll try growing some in the garden this year. Beans haven't done well here for the past few years. I estimate I can multiply each bean by about 25. 

 

 

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@GershonSurge, I just got this on my Facebook nutritarian group. I thought I'd share it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4katnfHzXA&feature=share&list=FLGSF4ouPA2YvXq2tSUqiw-w&index=37

 

I like two lines that Dr. Fuhrman uses in this lecture:

- "the whiter the bread, the sooner you're dead", and,

- "the more you eat green, the more you get lean". 

 

Thanks for correcting me on the author of "Whole". I didn't start reading it yet. I am looking forward to it, though. 

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