Ketogenic Diet

[Smiley73]

Hey Guys!!

Been reading a lot about Keto Diet. Anyone here had success? How'd you start? Thanks!

[Daves_Not_Here]

It's working for me but I have very limited experience.  I'm not sure how sustainable it will be once I hit my target weight. Eating this much fat weirds me out, and I'll need to get before and after blood panels before I become a true believer.

I got started by initially eating low-carb and then pushing further into ketosis.

I'm attracted by claims of increased mental clarity and focus.  I seem to be experiencing that, but am open to the possibility it is a placebo affect.  I've also had a reduction in inflammation (I have a persistently arthritic ankle that now feels like I never broke it).  But the weirdest thing is being able to engage in sustained aerobic exercise with no carbs before or after.  And repeat it the following day.  Crazy.

[WILDTIGGER2]

I just started two weeks ago on this diet. I'm prediabetic on metforman. I exercise 6 days a week. I am having hot flashes a lot. Have no idea why. I keep my carbs below 20% of calorie intake and only get that from natural sources. so far lost 2 lbs and 1 inch. Walking, hiking and soon to start snow shoeing are about all I can do with two bad knees and a hip replacement.

[Dominique]

Welcome to the community, @WILDTIGGER2! If your average intake is 2000 calories (wouldn’t be totally untypical for a large male, even when in a caloric deficit), 20% of that would be 100 grams of carbs. Would qualify as low-carb, but probably wouldn’t be keto. People more familiar than me with that approach can provide more info (there are fancy tests to determine whether or not you’re in ketosis). 

[WILDTIGGER2]

Actually a lot less than that as my in take us never more than 2500 and
usually is less than 2000. My calorie out is 3000 plus depending on work
put and how busy I am at work. I'm a health care professional and for
example this night I almost expended 5000 calories and took in less than
2000.

[SunsetRunner]

Dear @WILDTIGGER2, I think @Dominique's point was that at 20 % of your calories being carbohydrates at your calorie intake, the amount of carbs may be still too high making weight loss possibly ineffective. I would be less concerned with your calorie intake and just drastically reduce carbs if this diet is the diet of your choice.

[WILDTIGGER2]

I found what is hurting more is my protein intake. Protein can be made into
glucose. So uping my fats to 70% and protein 25% and 5% carbs. My calorie
intake should be 2080. So fats 1456 g , 520 g protein and 104 g of carbs.
Reading a book keto for beginners that is very good.
Thank you for your input.

[SunsetRunner]

Well if you would like to be successful on an Atkins style diet then protein intake does not matter. However, any sugar that may be added in your protein shakes may be a killer here.

[WILDTIGGER2]

This is not Atkins per say. This ketogenic diet is stricter on carbs than
Atkins. I am losing inches. The book I'm reading says the body will make
glucose from protein instead of using fat if it's to much. I'm weight
lifting and was a little worried about if I was getting enough to promote
muscle growth. It's the hot flashes that get me right now.

[SunsetRunner]

Well ... let me tell you that all "Ketogenic Diets" have their origin in the Atkins diet, who made them popular more than 30 years ago and was not taken seriously until numerous clinical trials have proven his diet to be effective and in lowering weight and improving blood parameters such as fasting glucose and LDL. The amount of carbohydrate that Atkins recommends at the start of such a diet is very low meaning no fruits or even high carb vegetable. But how strict you will have to be depends on your individual basal metabolic rate. If you are lifting, I assume it is not that low. You are correct that protein is also converted into glucose. But this will subsequently increase your "Energy Expenditure" and may be the reason of your hot flashes.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/3/519.full

[Dominique]

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@WILDTIGGER2 wrote:
I found what is hurting more is my protein intake. Protein can be made into
glucose. So uping my fats to 70% and protein 25% and 5% carbs. My calorie
intake should be 2080. So fats 1456 g , 520 g protein and 104 g of carbs.

---

See this post about gluconeogenesis (= why a ketogenic diet can’t be high protein).

If your intake is 2080 calories, then your fats are 162 grams, your protein 130 grams and your carbs 26 grams (caloric content of macronutrients: fats 9 calories per gram, protein and carbs 4 calories per gram). 

[WILDTIGGER2]

Thank you. Just weird to feel like some menopausal lady. Lol.

[Dominique]

---

@SunsetRunner wrote:

Dear @WILDTIGGER2, I think @Dominique's point was that at 20 % of your calories being carbohydrates at your calorie intake, the amount of carbs may be still too high making weight loss possibly ineffective. I would be less concerned with your calorie intake and just drastically reduce carbs if this diet is the diet of your choice.

---

Actually, my primary point was that at 20% of total calories, carbs would be too high in absolute terms for the diet to meet the requirements of ketosis. I used 2000 calories as the base intake: @WILDTIGGER2 first said he usually consumed less than that, but he later mentioned an intake quite close to that.

If losing weight is his concern, I would definitely pay attention to total calories, since there’s nothing magical in a ketogenic (or low-carb) diet that would result in weight loss without being in a deficit. Except of course for the typical initial loss (water weight) observed when drastically cutting carbs. 

[SunsetRunner]

Thank you @Dominique, just a few comments I like to make. The original poster's title is Ketogenic Diet ... asking for "success", so presumably we are talking about success in weight loss. @WILDTIGGER2 is at risk for Diabetes type 2 and on first line medication that is particular used in people that are overweight. He also confirms his weight loss of 2 lbs indicating that this might be at least one reason why he is experimenting with this kind of diet. Like you quoted me correctly, I DID say that "the amount of carbs may be still too high", even I did not explicitly state it ... I was talking here to drive ketosis. I would not consider "Ketogenic Diet" a diet that will be used by a healthy athlete since the performance IS limited. Bodybuilders and actors that change their body composition for visual enhancement are a league of their own. Lastly, you state "there’s nothing magical in a ketogenic (or low-carb) diet that would result in weight loss". Even though not magical but rather scientifically shown by Bazzano et al. in a randomized clinical trial it has been shown that WITHOUT calorie restriction a low carb diet is effective in weight loss (as well as improvement of cardiovascular risk factors)! Please see below for references. 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00609271

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4428290/pdf/nihms687161.pdf

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/02/health/low-carb-vs-low-fat-diet.html

[Daves_Not_Here]

I don't know enough yet to state an opinion, but I'm interested in the connections and commonalities between ketogenic diets, intermittent fasting, and the "fasting mimicking diet" first conceived over 100 years ago.

My interest is piqued by my current experience with ketogenic eating, which I'm finding to be an unusually positive experience with some unexpected payoffs.

Interesting scholarly article:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4899145/

[SunsetRunner]

@Daves_Not_Here, good point you make here. I have seen recently in the news (probably like you) the discussion of potential benefits of intermittent fasting. As in your attached article it has always been known that fasting can bring short term relief for a variety of medical conditions. The aspect of longterm weight loss is I guess more complicated. If you use your "fasting break" to make sure your basal metabolic rate is not going into the basement, I can see the benefit. However, if you start to devour your whole fridge and gain in a single setting all your weight back that you have lost over weeks or months (yes binge eaters can do that) then this method is very questionable to me. On a personal note, I can share with you that I always incorporated cheat days (after my first month!; munching down one 750 g bag of high fiber Muesli with skim milk OR eating only fruits unlimited - nothing else) in my "Ketogenic Diet" from time to time and it did not hurt my weight loss trend as long as I went back the next day cold turkey.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@SunsetRunner -- looking back over the last 3 months, I've had about 6 "binge" days where I ate more than my total energy requirement.  These were social situations such as a weekend-long party.  However, while my water weight temporarily spiked, my overall weight-loss trend was unaffected.  (maybe they served as cheat days and kept my metabolism up?)

However, my attitude has recently changed -- I know that if I binge, it won't impact my weight, but I'm now motivated to stay in ketosis to continue to enjoy the low inflammation, mental focus, and steady energy level.

[WILDTIGGER2]

Today I'm down to 7 % carbs which is close to 34g of carbs. Was lower only
my blood sugar was tanking.

[Daves_Not_Here]

Hi @WILDTIGGER2 -- you mentioned you are prediabetic.  Check out Virta Health's site at  https://www.virtahealth.com/ . Their mission is to reverse Type II diabetes, and it looks like nutritional ketosis is part of their treatment regimen.  It appears that many of their patients are reducing their symptoms and medications.

[SunsetRunner]

I am sorry, I need to clarify. With binge I did not just mean exceeding your usual energy requirement. With binge I meant gulping down maybe 20k plus cal in a setting that will not just lead to additional water retention from loaded salt and sugar but also nicely elongated fatty acid chains (not so easy to cut those up again and substantial weight gain)... The extra bottle of wine and pasta should be ok on a cheat day as you see that your weight loss trend stays on track! A cheat day is good because on those days you can enjoy food more as you have eliminated it so much and helps you to workout harder next time since you can look forward to that cool dinner/party coming up "next month"