Struggling to exercise on low-carb / keto

[Daves_Not_Here]

Looking for any advice from those who have adapted to ketosis:  I have been eating very low-carb / keto during the week for weight loss, and adding carbs back in on Friday to support strenuous cardio activity (cycling with hill climbing) on Saturday and Sunday.  This works pretty well - I have plenty of energy on the weekend.  

The problem is I don't experience the supposed benefits of ketosis (energy and mental alertness) during the week, and I suspect it is because I don't stay in ketosis more than 4 days at a time.  So I've been experimenting with trying to stay in ketosis through the weekends.  So last weekend, I went out on a bike ride in the heat and nearly bonked so I pulled into a restaurant and had an emergency bowl of grits.

Today, I tried it again on low carbs -- I went out cycling for about 80 minutes.  Normally, it only takes me about 5 minutes to get warmed up to full energy.  Today, I continued to have the blahs and almost turned around after 30 minutes.  But, finally my energy kicked in and I finished strong.

Is this normal?  If I continue to stick with it, does exercising get easier?  How long does it take to get the boost of mental energy?

[DanielleinDC]

You need to eat (healthy) carbohydrates for energy. If you aren't eating enough carbs, you aren't going to have the energy you need to do your exercise. I've read that a lot of people on low-carb diets have problems with a lack of energy (and bad breath), and that's because of their diets.

[Daves_Not_Here]

---

@DanielleinDC wrote:

You need to eat (healthy) carbohydrates for energy. If you aren't eating enough carbs, you aren't going to have the energy you need to do your exercise. I've read that a lot of people on low-carb diets have problems with a lack of energy (and bad breath), and that's because of their diets.

---

Thanks @DanielleinDC -- In the past I've always relied on carbs for energy, particularly for strenuous physical exercise, but right now I'm experimenting with trying to get energy from burning fat.  I'll keep plugging at it for a few more weeks and see if I experience the much-touted ketosis mental energy boost (and I'll make sure to hit the breath mints).

Preliminary result:  On an empty stomach, I went out this morning for 30 minutes of very light cardio (never got over 75% of max heart rate) and felt great.  I've only consumed about 20 grams of carbs for breakfast and lunch, and I must say that I am feeling unusually good and energetic - not sleepy or hungry at all, and better able to stay on task.  If I continue to feel this good for more than a couple of days, I'll feel that I am definitely on to something good.

[Bill_k]

Yeah lack of energy,funky breath,a weird taste in your mouth and throat all the time.Much better to eat maybe 80 gms of carbs a day instead of 30.

At least then you can eat good carb containing vegetables and some rice noodles or beans.

Life for me was pretty much hell on keto diet and not sustainable at all.

I still lose weight this way and don't suffer.

[DanielleinDC]

I have no problem doing 30 minutes of cardio before I've had my breakfast. But I do make sure I have something carby in the morning because that's what my body does best. I'll either have a cup of gazpacho (which will end when summer does) with a few chips or smear two small rice cakes with chocolate hazelnut butter and slice a banana. When I get to work, I have a handful of nuts and an orange.

[Daves_Not_Here]

---

@DanielleinDC wrote:

I have no problem doing 30 minutes of cardio before I've had my breakfast. But I do make sure I have something carby in the morning because that's what my body does best. I'll either have a cup of gazpacho (which will end when summer does) with a few chips or smear two small rice cakes with chocolate hazelnut butter and slice a banana. When I get to work, I have a handful of nuts and an orange.

---

@DanielleinDC - sounds yummy, but no fair tempting me!  I'm surprised how sweet fruit tastes now that I've stopped eating processed food with sugar added.  A couple of weeks ago, I had some cramping in my feet so I ate a couple of bananas for the potassium.  Wow!  Tasted like candy..

[Dominique]

---

@Daves_Not_Here wrote:

Looking for any advice from those who have adapted to ketosis

---

@Daves_Not_Here: first of all, I don’t meet the requirement you set, but the Besserwisser in me still wants to contribute to your post, so please accept my apologies 

I believe long-term success in a weightloss and fitness journey is to find ways of eating and exercising that you genuinely enjoy and that you could stick to for the rest of your life. For instance, @Dave001 (who hasn’t posted for a while, but hopefully will chime in) has found the Mediterranean diet (which I would rather call "style of eating", because for tens of millions of people around the Mediterranean sea, it’s not a diet, it’s just part of their daily life) and walking. @ARcycler17 has found the ketogenic diet and cycling. Both are 100% motivated by what they’re doing and fully convinced it’s the right approach for them. Very important IMO.

OTOH, it seems to me that you consider keto as a temporary mean to the end of reaching your ideal weight, something you relunctantly resort to (because you feel it’s an efficient way to get you where you want to be), but not something you enjoy so much you could stick to it for the rest of your life. I get it, if someone told me I could never eat sushi, pizza, pasta, Mexican food, cheesecake etc. again, I would be devastated.

You appear to be a smart and logically thinking guy. You have found your Fitbit provides a reasonably accurate way to estimate your energy expenditure. You have been able to log your dietary intake very accurately (something I really envy, as I’m still unable to do it). You know weight loss is primarily about the caloric deficit, and you have neat graphs to prove it. This means any way of eating and exercising that produces the same deficit will produce the same result. I get it that keto helps contain hunger because of the satiating effect of fat. OTOH, you could very well achieve the same satiety effect with a regular diet that includes all the macronutrients: increase your protein (which is also satiating, and has the highest thermic effect of food), include carbs that have a lot of fiber (whole grain, veggies), include foods that provide a lot of bulk for little calories (most veggies). Calories for calories, you will have a similar effect on satiety, but the higher carb intake will give you the energy you’re so missing for activity and sharp thinking during the week. I don’t know about your schedule, but it seems to me you’re unnecessarily slowing down the process by only being active during weekends. A one-hour walk every day after work on weekdays would do wonder for your well-being and your weight loss. 

[Daves_Not_Here]

@Dominique - thanks to you, I looked up Besserwisser and had to add it to my vocabulary.  Great word, and a pretty apt description of me in my obnoxious know-it-all-edness (I may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean I'll change anything).  And, I have already called somebody else a Besserwisser, which they appreciate I'm sure.

Reading your thoughtful post, I would say that I completely agree with your analysis.  I believe that a caloric deficit is THE key driver for weight loss, regardless of macro-nutrient proportions.  My first 15-20 pounds of weight loss starting this early July were eating very close to the balance you suggested with 150 to 250 grams of low GI whole-food carbs per day.  I've only transitioned to full keto-psychosis in the last 2-3 weeks.

Some personal clarification: I don't consider keto to be a temporary means to an end, but rather a prospective regimen that I am testing for possible long-term adoption.  I have some additional goals I pursuing, which I will now bullet out in my normal Besserwisser style:

• Mental energy and acuity -- over the last 5 years, I've experienced a general mental decline regardless of diet, weight, activity level, and mindfulness.  I have a few friends who rave about the mental turn-around they have experienced on keto, and have read a number of articles that speak to cognitive improvements.  My intention is to see for myself what the affect is.
• Inflammation -- keto purports to lower inflammation.  I have had an old arthritic ankle injury that ranges from 1 to 10 pain based on global meteorological conditions and the level of inflammation going on in my body.  In the last 2 days, for the first time in 25 years since my injury, my pain is at zero (0) (Wow!)  Is it keto, or is it Irma not having hit California?  Don't know, but I like how a total lack of pain feels.
• Metabolic Syndrome -- I lost both my parents to heart disease, diabetes and stroke.  I am pre-diabetic but my LDL and Triglycerides are normal.  My blood pressure is 110/70 and resting heart-rate is 52.  HDL is too low and I've never been able to raise it.  I've seen some reports that keto can improve all these markers.  I'm getting a full panel this week and will reassess after 4 months to see if it works for me.

As to exercise, while my weekends are far more intense, I will increase daily cardio per your advice.  For the last 2 days, I have added 20-30 minutes of light cycling first thing in the morning to see if I can break through the keto-exercise barrier.  So far so good, and every day I feel more energy.  I'm loving what is beginning to feel like mental serenity (but it could just be seeing a less-fat person in the mirror whose ankle doesn't hurt).

So my game plan is to press on and see what my numbers look like after 4 months.  If I don't experience increased mental energy after a few more weeks, I'll probably bail on keto and revert back to your suggested balance.  If my numbers still need improvement, I'll probably try the plant-based whole-foods approach a la' McDougal and Pritikin.  Either way, I think donuts are probably out of my life for good!  Thanks for indulging my long-winded Besserwisser response!

[emili]

I really enjoyed reading this string. I already know who I am going to call a Besserwisser (now that I have looked it up). The problem is he really is a know it all and will not be impressed one bit- I however will feel like a genius! Thanks @Dominique.. and @Daves_Not_Here sadly I have nothing to add to your post other than hats off to you because that would be torture for me. Carbs are my friends and I love them.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@emili -- depending on his overall obnoxiousness, maybe you should set him up for a one-two delayed-action punch.  First step, you call him a Besserwisser.  Of course, he will then respond with that awkward expression that know-it-alls have when they encounter something they don't know.  Then you say, "I find it ironic that, as a World-Class Besserwisser, you don't even know what a Besserwisser is!  The Besserwisser Institute should revoke your Besserwisser Credentials."

He will snort as though this is a mere trifle of no import, but your payoff is knowing that within 5 minutes, he will Google like a fiend, discover the meaning, and realize he's been had.  I think this is just great fun, and I wonder why I don't get any Christmas Cards.

[Dominique]

ROFL, @Daves_Not_Here! At least I’ve learned something: Besserwisser isn’t as widely understood by US English speakers as I thought.

[emili]

@Daves_Not_Here you are hilarious and I will be happy to send you a Christmas card! Which I actually never send because I think its a wasted activity. I take the money I would have spent and donate it to charity instead. Plus I am always thinking what is the respectable amount of time between getting it and chucking it in the bin. next day, a week, after Christmas- oh the stress.

[alcarcalimo2364]

Have you looked at Mark's Daily Apple? His way of eating has helped me tremendously, and I've lost 70 lbs following what he advocates. you can look more on his website, but he talks about a "carbohydrate curve". Less than 50g/day is ketosis, which he doesn't view as sustainable long term. 50-100g net carbs is where you should be in weight loss mode, which has what I've been doing since February. 100g-150g carbs is where you should be if you're trying to maintain your weight. It also suggest eating an additional 50-100g of carbs if you do a highly strenuous workout for 45-60 minutes. This plan of eating is still "low-carb" but not as extreme as a keto diet, and it definitely has worked and allowed me to exercise without feeling exhausted. The website is http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

[Daves_Not_Here]

Thanks @alcarcalimo2364 !  Congrats on your 70 pound loss, I'm envious!

I bookmarked the site, and will be reading it in detail over the next few days.  As I review my carbs since July 7, I see that I am in the 50 - 100 gram range for most weekdays.  Prior to my experimentation with keto, I ramped up over that during strenuous activity days.  So at least the site aligns with my confirmation biases!

Getting under 50 for the day takes some attention, but I must say that I am encouraged by my initial results.  In particular, I believe I am experiencing a greater sense of well-being and mental clarity.  I seem better able to focus on the important versus the urgent in my busy life.  Of course, it could be a placebo affect, so I continue to "watch the watcher".

Thanks again!

[SunsetRunner]

I lost 50 lbs with Atkins diet in a timeframe of 5 months about 2 years ago. Still going strong. I think the first step is in your head. You need to ask yourself if you are ready for this. Even I have worked out my whole life with breaks in between, I started in the first month without working out eating strictly only veggies (no beans, potatoes or other higher carb content veggies) and meat (in my case only seafood and eggs since I do not eat other meat); no fruits and no milk products either. After the first month I started doing my first run for only 90 sec. This is no joke. Reason for that was that I had previously knee problems when restarting like when I was in my twenties. I subsequently increased over the next 2 months my time until I reached about an hour for 3 times a week.  While staying on Atkins I had on "cheat days" Only fruits OR cereal (Only high fiber cereal without added sugar but with skim or butter milk) in my first year. In my second year I switched to 2 runs plus 2 times strength training each week. I incorporated then also fruits on a regular basis into my diet. Now in my 3rd year, I eat kind of "normal"....Whole grains, fruits, meat (only seafood), eggs, still no milk or cheese (except for the rare occasion of a pizza or pasta). I try to keep the carbs low and avoid the deserts. But I forgive myself also when I have a weak stretch of a couple of weeks. However, I try to keep up my workout regimen at all times. And when I feel good, I work out even harder  Good Luck

[Daves_Not_Here]

---

@SunsetRunner wrote:

I lost 50 lbs with Atkins diet in a timeframe of 5 months about 2 years ago. Still going strong. ... And when I feel good, I work out even harder  Good Luck

---

 @SunsetRunner - thanks!  Looks like this was your first post to the forum (Welcome), and thanks for using it to answer my question!

Congrats on your sustained success -- I'm hoping to replicate your experience.  I know it's possible because I had a similar path 8 years ago, sustained for 5 years, and then relapsed back into insanity.  Funny how if you eat like you ate when you were fat, you get fat ... <CLANK!! sound of frying pan hitting head>

By the way, do you think your carbs are low enough (50 grams or lower) that you are in keytosis, or are you more in a low-carb state?  Do you eat carbs before and after exercise, or do you think you are "keto-adapted" to get your energy from fat?

[Daves_Not_Here]

UPDATE:  I just had an amazing exercise experience on keto and wanted to share with all y'all (because I assume the whole world is interested in my personal journey.  Hey, you chose to read this thread, I can't help how you use your time!)

So, I go out this evening for a 75 minute ride - 45 minutes of flats leading to my nemesis, the local white whale of a hill with multiple routes up that I can select depending how much pain I'm in the mood for.  I had low expectations given I've eaten less than 50g of carbs for the prior 3 days, today I'd eaten only 15g of carbs and 550 total calories, and to complete the insanity, I had only straight water in my bottle.  I was thinking let's see what this bonk feels like, I've always got Uber.

As before, I found that burning fat as fuel is "slower" in that it took me more time to get activated than the 5 minutes it takes me when I'm topped off on carbs.   But once I got going, the results were (drumroll, please) -- 5 personal best segments on Strava, including the 3 anaerobic climbs (!?)  And the improvements were not trivial, ranging from 11% to 19% time reductions.  I felt good enough to take the steepest route and could have done repeats but didn't want to push my luck.  I wasn't even trying to go fast, my goal was only to get home on my bike instead of a Prius.

Thinking about it, part of the improvement has to be lugging less lard uphill.  By my biggest improvement was on the final flat segment where weight doesn't matter.  Also, I was fully rested.  The one possibly adverse result was my max heart-rate, normally 168, hit 178.  I can only assume that having low glycogen meant my aerobic system was more fully engaged.  Either that or I only have 5 more minutes to live.

Assuming I wake up tomorrow, I think I'll try a 2-3 hour low intensity ride on flats to see if I will continue to remain bonk-free (I figure if I had any residual glycogen in my muscles, it has to be stripped out by today's ride).   If that goes well, I will believe there is something to this.  Thanks for reading!

[SunsetRunner]

When I started out at the beginning of my "Atkins" diet, I did so the hard way. No cheat days in the first month and only veggies with real low carb content, which is the case for almost all veggies but excluding beans, potatoes etc. When I used to be younger I was able to kick start a diet also by incorporating more carbs. Not any more haha ... Doing so, I do Not limit myself to a) any amount and b) to any specific time eating during the day. Now when doing meat or fish in the pan, I recommend using high quality canola or olive oil (just my 2 cents as a biochemist in metabolic diseases). When you start this diet it takes a few painful days until your glycogen stores in your body are depleted. But once your fatty acid beta oxidation is going up and running you feel better and working out is ok. In regards to your question how many carbs are allowed, I think everybody has to gauge that for himself. However, if you start the very strict way even the fattest and laziest one will lose weight! As I mentioned before, I would go hard (strict) on the diet first, then start soft on exercise and build muscle slowly. Over time, I go harder on exercise and softer (less strict) on diet.

[Dominique]

---

@alcarcalimo2364 wrote:

Have you looked at Mark's Daily Apple? [...] This plan of eating is still "low-carb" 

---

Based on the description, I would rather call it an "activity-adjusted variable carb intake" diet. And of course, it’s the way any diet should be: if you are mostly sedentary, you should consume a limited amount of carbs (not much activity to fuel); if, OTOH, you are very active, you can (and should, IMO) consume a much higher amount of carbs. Carbs don’t make you fat, excess calories (in relation to your activity level) do. That these excess calories come mostly from carbs (e.g. your stereotypical programmer nerd feeding himself on pizza) is secondary. 

[SunsetRunner]

Thank you for your comment Dominique. I agree very much with you. Calorie intake should be adjusted and excess calories make you fat. And at the end of the day any diet works as long as you keep the "Balance" intact. However, I addressed here the topic "Struggling to exercise on low-carb / keto". In particular, I said that the efficiency of this diet will be improved when Carbohydrate Intake gets significantly reduced. This is especially the case for people with a low basal metabolic rate that do not workout at all (as you mentioned "e.g. your stereotypical programmer nerd feeding himself on pizza"). Atkins was when he first advertised his diet crucified by the medical community. However, since then multiple clinical trials have shown that his diet not only works but also that the weight loss in subject participants is correlated with significant improvements in Blood lipoprotein profile, Fasting glucose and Blood pressure. The fact that this diet has become widely popular ("low carb diet", "Hollywood diet" etc etc.) makes a point. Back to your comment - Is this the diet to have for a fit high activity person - No, but that was not the subject of this post here.