Overused knees??

[kellamine]

Hi, for those who runs everyday or clock an average of 30K steps or more, do you experience knee strains??
I am of a healthy weight & have gradually increased my stepcount from 25k average to around 38k to 50k per day in preparation for a full 42.195km run in May. Dunno if I am paranoid or what, but my knees feel weaker. Anyone having similar issues pls share with me your solutions?

I have already started on vegetable glucosamine & calcium pills every other day....

[Dominique · Accepted solution]

Since you appear to be both young and light, this sounds very worrying. I have no experience of preparing for a marathon, but my feeling is you shouldn’t need to average 50k steps everyday. S​t​a​r​s​h​i​p​T​r​o​o​p​e​r is a Fitbit friend of mine who is in his 60’s and started to run marathons only a few years ago. He has provided details about his preparation and I know it didn’t involve that many steps. You may want to contact him. It would be silly to ruin your knees at your age. 

[kellamine]

Thank you, Dominique!!! Yes, I am quite worried about my knees. My mom said she didn't even start feeling anything until she was 58. It is my first marathon so I do need all the advice I can get 🙂 tq!

[SunsetRunner]

So it IS possible to over train.  Doing repeated marathon distances might help with your endurance, but not your overall speed/pace.  Sounds like over doing it to me.  Depending on what you eat, you could be having innflammation issues too? 

[STrooper · Accepted solution]

I accepted your friend request with your message.

In what way do your knees feel "weaker?"  

In general, your body responds to training for running any distance in the following progression with conditioning responses.

Cardiovascular first (days to weeks).

Muscular second ( 1-6 months).

Skeletal last (bones, ligaments, and tendons, 6 months-1 year).  

The adaptation is a function of the amount of bloodflow to these systems and the ligaments and tendons get the least bloodflow of the systems listed above.  And one way people get hurt is that they greatly exceed the adapting capacity of any of the systems.  Training is a series of progressive stress applied to all the systems as a stimulus and then rest/recovery for adaptation before you your next level.

And rest is absolutely essential for the adaptation.  If you don't, you develop a syndrome called "overtraining."  That applies primarily to the muscle systems because they just end up exhausted and because of the exhaustion can also adversely affect the stability of the ligaments and tendons.  

So, given the number of steps your profile gives you may be overdoing it.  In that sense, you may be exceeded what your knees can currently handle.

Before I started training my first marathon I averaged between 22,000-25,000 steps per day (walking daily).  And for my first marathons I used a run/walk technique to train and comfortably (if you can describe it that way) run my first marathon.  I was looking to finish in a decent time but not to be a real speedster (that could come later if I chose to do that).  I started training seriously in mid-May (2013) for a November 3, 2013 marathon.  At the beginning, my longest run was 10 km.

But after I started training my step count per week dropped dramatically.  Thats because I changed to running three days per week (minimum) and walking or cross-training (no leg work) the other days.  But resting was essential to the transition from walking to running.  At the same time, my weekend long runs progressed from 10 km all the way up to 42km before tapering before the race.  Every two weeks my long run would bump up by approximately 3.2 km until I reached 22.5 km.  And after that it increased by 4.8 km every three weeks.  

So here is what my step count looked like (average per day for each week) as I eased out of a pure walking regime to running.  Remember, by running I had fewer steps per km than walking.  And the faster I go, the fewer steps I get per km:

May 6-12:   23,540

May 13-19:  20,941

May 20-26:  22,113

May 27-June 2:  22,734

June 3-9:  18,950

June 10-16:  19,447

June 17-23:  18,874

June 24-30:  17,280

July 1-7:  17,150

July 8-14:  17,204

July 15-21:  16,082

July 22-28:  20,383

July 29-August 4:  15,937

August 5-11:  15,465

August 12-18:  18,992

August 19-25:  15,533

August 26-September 1: 16,881

September 2-8:  19, 855

September 9-15:  17,639

September 16-22:  17,885

September 23-29: 18,395

September 30-October 6:  22,707

October 7-13:  16,489 (taper)

October 14-20:  15,708 (taper)

October 21-27:  16,352 (taper)

October 28-November 3: 18,310 (Race week, including race on November 3)

I think you can access my profile and see that running between 60-80 km a week still puts me around 20,000 steps per day on average.  And I'm shooting for a Boston Qualification in March (3:55:00) with a finish time of 3:50:00.  

Hope this helps.  

Gary

[kellamine]

Thank you very much Gary for that input! I really needed that, it IS my first marathon and I think I AM training the wrong way. My average stepcount has always been unusually high even performing daily tasks I think coz I have shorter legs and therefore need more strides than the average person. So before I even started running regularly (approx 3 years ago),i have been averaging around 18k? Then I started running almost every other day 2 years ago and my av stepcount was abt 25k and slowly progressed to running EVERYDAY, and sometimes twice about a 2 months back and it became around 32k. Its only lately (start of jan 16)that I have progressed to running twice a day and that brought it to are 40 to 50k steps 😛

You are definitely right about running faster & clocking less steps with improvements in speed!! I noticed that too before I end each of my run and so I thought I would run longer in duration to cover the missed steps and see how far I can run 😛


So I guess I AM over doing it.

Well there isn't really any sharp shooting pain in my knees nor does it ache, and i dont know if it makes any sense to you but I kinda no longer feel too confident gg up or downstairs coz the surrounding muscles around them feel sore?

And BTW Gary when you mention rest_, does it STRICTLY have to mean no running? Can I jog? 😛

I look forward to your reply & many thanks in advance!!!

Cheers,
Kellie

[kellamine]

And veganbadass, what sorts of foods am I supposed to avoid?? Sorry coz I am really absolutely clueless about what foods are good and what are not... 😛

[DerrickS]

@kellamine I think another great rule that I try to stick with is run on dirt or grass any chance you get. Running on concrete or pavement puts more stress on your joints which adds up when you are running long distances.

I also agree with @STrooper that rest is incredibly important and very easy to overlook when you are training for a big race. I think it's hard define what a rest day looks like since every body is different, but I would err on the side of caution since it sounds like your knees are already bothering you.

[Corney]

There is such a thing as over training, I always would tell my clients to listen to their bodies, maybe you should back off till your legs feel stronger.  When training for my marathon, I didn't seriously increase my weekly long run until 2 months before the race and only did it 10% per week, while keeping my daily runs to 6-7 miles per day,  From your picture you seem very slim, if you keep this up until May you peak may too soon.  Your goal should be to peak about 1 week before the race.  I recall an American who qualified for the Olympic marathon who was putting in over 140 miles per week, if I remember correctly he faded fast and barely finished.

[STrooper]

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@kellamine wrote:
Thank you very much Gary for that input! I really needed that, it IS my first marathon and I think I AM training the wrong way. My average stepcount has always been unusually high even performing daily tasks I think coz I have shorter legs and therefore need more strides than the average person. So before I even started running regularly (approx 3 years ago),i have been averaging around 18k? Then I started running almost every other day 2 years ago and my av stepcount was abt 25k and slowly progressed to running EVERYDAY, and sometimes twice about a 2 months back and it became around 32k. Its only lately (start of jan 16)that I have progressed to running twice a day and that brought it to are 40 to 50k steps 😛

You are definitely right about running faster & clocking less steps with improvements in speed!! I noticed that too before I end each of my run and so I thought I would run longer in duration to cover the missed steps and see how far I can run 😛


So I guess I AM over doing it.

Well there isn't really any sharp shooting pain in my knees nor does it ache, and i dont know if it makes any sense to you but I kinda no longer feel too confident gg up or downstairs coz the surrounding muscles around them feel sore?

And BTW Gary when you mention rest_, does it STRICTLY have to mean no running? Can I jog? 😛

I look forward to your reply & many thanks in advance!!!

Cheers,
Kellie

---

Kellie:

Sorry it took me a couple of tries to get the reply to work. 

REST means no running or jogging.  Walk comfortably, yes.  But not for huge distances.  I will even occasionally swim easy laps.

Rest days can be be non-leg, cross-training days.  Good for arms and core training. 

It sounds like the tendons surrounding the knee are beginning to revolt. 

I tend to think in terms of distance instead of steps, but with the general 2,000 steps per mile, unless you are a professional runner or just have lots of time to run, you are putting in lots of distance per week and far more thanis typical. 

Given the distance you have been putting in, finishing a marathon probably won't be your problem if you can stay uninjured AND you run smartly during the race.

[SunsetRunner]

need to find reference and notes.

Source comes from Rich Roll running/doing ultraman (swimming/bike/running) marathons and dealing with training.  In prep for marathons, key wasn't going faster for longer but for going slower later than the other.  To do with aerobic vs anarobic training.  And key was strangely going SLOWER...like 10 min miles vs pushing for doing 8 min miles for 24 miles. 

Need to dig all that up.  Shoes matter.  Too many shoes are mass built, mass marketed.  Need to tailor it to your foot/stride/balance.

I don't recall Rich was doing marathon miles each week, never mind every other day. It had to do with finding and keeping your heart rate below 140, to build up your aerobic range and endurance, not trying to sprint for 20+ miles which is not possible.

Energy (bio-available) and hydration (not neon colored sugary drinks) is important too...

[STrooper]

A tendency of typical runners is to go too fast (and too far before they
are really ready) when training. This makes sense, of course. Your body is
responding to the stimulus, first at the aerobic level, then muscular, and
finally skeletal.

You do need some stimulus to promote both the stress and recovery that is
"training," but most people don't know that intuitively. My own training
follows a plan where runs are "fast" only once or twice a week and the
other days I just plod along. The trick is to run with good form even when
running slowly.

I have been fortunate with shoes. Some of my friends have not and are in a
perpetual search to address foot related issues.

I agree that a good fueling plan can make a huge difference...those sugary
drinks should not be relied upon in training. Tested, yes (to see how your
system handles them). If you train well to rely upon fat as a major source
(I.e., aerobically), then on race day the additional sugar from drinks,
gel, and the like can help extend glycogen stores.

If you race like you train, the race should not be unfamiliar territory
(and that goes for both positive and negative experiences).