SPO2 sensor on Ionic

[JAH67]

Part of the sales pitch for the Ionic watch was that it has multiple additional features that would come online after launch, including the ability to check blood oxygen levels. I've yet to find anything to do with it anywhere. Has anyone got any information when this stuff is going live or was it just marketing? 

Moderator edit: updated subject for clarity and word choice.

[SunsetRunner]

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@Kkjbwrote:

There is no distinction between an investor press release and a press release in that information is put out into the public domain.

First page from Google:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41082953

https://sleeptrackers.io/fitbit-ionic/

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/20/fitbit-is-going-after-sleep-apnea-to-expand-beyond-fitness-tracking....

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/30/16227040/fitbit-sleep-apnea-tracking-ionic-smartwatch-sensors

https://www.wired.com/story/when-your-activity-tracker-becomes-a-personal-medical-device/

Some big news sites amongst that lot! So we all just got the wrong end of the stick?

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Once again you are intentionally misleading people.

Of course all press releases are public domain, why wouldn't there be, but I guess it makes it look like you are saying thing when you are not.

You know I've previously pointed out the get out clauses in the investor press release.

Finally you are once again pointing to third party websites rather than the only official channel (fitbit.com).

Regardless BBC articles states Ionic has a sensor which is true and the rest are talking about futures. Journalist about something do not count as official statements, please learn to read specs on official websites in future.

. 

[SunsetRunner]

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@waynepoyntonwrote:

Fitbit plans to submit sleep apnea, Afib detection tools for FDA clearance,yes at last.

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Do you have a URL for this?

You say the word "plan"

I plan to be a millionaire sadly that hasn't happened yet.

[Kkjb]

Always under promise and over deliver. That way people you deal with will always be happy. It's good advice. I apply it to myself and judge others that don't. Fitbit are in danger of doing the opposite.

[SunsetRunner]

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@Kkjbwrote:

Always under promise and over deliver. That way people you deal with will always be happy. It's good advice. I apply it to myself and judge others that don't. Fitbit are in danger of doing the opposite.

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Or in this case don't promise SPO2 sensor and watch customers make stuff up 

[Kkjb]

Yep me and the BBC just imagined all this?

Everyone who looks at the back of the watch and sees the sp02 sensor is hallucinating?

Why are you on this message board anyway - it's for people who want to find out when the SpO2 is going to work but you think it doesn't exist! Strange.

[SunsetRunner]

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@Kkjbwrote:

Yep me and the BBC just imagined all this?

Everyone who looks at the back of the watch and sees the sp02 sensor is hallucinating?

Why are you on this message board anyway - it's for people who want to find out when the SpO2 is going to work but you think it doesn't exist! Strange.

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No promises were made as you know. Talk about SPO2 sensors have had get out clauses clearly attached. I say this over and over again and have provided evidence to show this but you just ignore it.

Everything is based on the investor press release as you know.

As you know, I have never said it does not exist, you've just made that up (as is most of what you have written). We all know the software that hooks into the sensor has not been provided. Whether it will or not is up in the air.

I'll post when I see fit, nobody appointed you to be the forum police.

Why are you always making stuff up? Perhaps go and work for Russia Today?

[Kkjb]

I make nothing up - you are entitled to a different opinion. I think you are wrong most of the time but I have never accused you of being a liar. I strongly suspect you wouldn't do so to my face so don't be a keyboard warrior.

I am interested in this equipment because i think these personal devices have huge potential for providing patients with data that we can follow up with medical grade measurements. That is why I am here asking when the sp02 will work - if you don't know there is no need to answer my question. I am not here as a jobless Fitbit enthusiast with nothing better to do with my life than to be on here talking to strangers.

[bbarrera]

@Kkjbwrote:

I am interested in this equipment because i think these personal devices have huge potential for providing patients with data that we can follow up with medical grade measurements.

@Kkjb Fitbit continues to tease out information, but no hard dates because they need to follow a regulatory process.

Fitbit CEO on the recent Feb 28 earnings call stated that management is hoping to deliver something related to apnea and afib in 2018.

But still no dates or commitment, as from that call the CEO made it clear that Fitbit is going the FDA pre-certification route before introducing the features. 

Hope that helps, I tried posting more information but the forum is reviewing content and preventing me from posting what he actually said.

[bbarrera]

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@SunsetRunnerwrote:
Everything is based on the investor press release as you know.

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No its not.

At the press event Fitbit gave Wearable.com access to various Fitbit employees and Wearable.com wrote an article about SpO2, apnea, and afib.

[SunsetRunner]

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@bbarrerawrote:

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@SunsetRunnerwrote:
Everything is based on the investor press release as you know.

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No its not.

At the press event Fitbit gave Wearable.com access to various Fitbit employees and Wearable.com wrote an article about SpO2, apnea, and afib.

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Quote from that article...

"When we'll actually see Fitbit offer these new insights is unclear, but it's close – Fitbit says "the not-too-distant future" – and when it does, it could completely change the game for the company."

Zero promises and an ambiguous statement then.

[SunsetRunner]

guys, why would anyone want another half-baked feature activated?!

the Ionic has at least a couple firmware versions (also along with Fitbit app updates) to go before being considered stable.

there's one thing to miscount swimming laps or steps/floors consistently, another to report whatever health-related issues..this is not a game or a joke. People will freak out. But then again, more money for MDs and health insurance companies, i suppose...

[bbarrera]

Agree, Fitbit is unable to commit to a release date because it requires FDA approval. Thats what I posted above.

My point is that, the Aug 28 product press release is not "everything is based on investor press release" with respect to information about SpO2.

Fitbit started hinting about upcoming apnea and afib solutions on the Aug 2 earnings call (held for investors).

Then Fitbit assembled the media/press on or around Aug 21, to give them time to write articles to appear on Aug 28. During the press event, Fitbit gave some publications access to key employees, and they shared more details about SpO2. This is very typical of press events for launching major new products (I've launched 4 major products and an industry initiative). The quotes in that article are not taken from any press release.

It should be pretty clear that Fitbit gave the media standard press kit materials (product press release with feature/availability info, product launch slide deck, pictures, other info). And it held a private event for the media, where it provided more details about SpO2 sensor, and certain press were given 1-1 access to key Fitbit folks where they asked more questions about Fitbit plans for apnea/afib/SpO2. They even followed up after the event with at least one high profile blogger, to clarify they were exploring/researching and those features may not come to Ionic.

All of this could have been avoided by launching Ionic on its merits, without discussing features that may never come to pass. And that would have resulted in a press release without safe harbor notices.

[WavyDavey]

Launch the Ionic with no mention of the sensor? How do you keep that hidden while dancing with the FDA? Just one day you announce there was hardware in there all along? Investors would appreciate that? 

How about the people that purchase the Ionic, and notice there's an extra sensor on the back. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes level of observation to  see it. Those people might come here, asking, what is this sensor? And we're to say: "Why, we don't know! Fitbit never mentioned it!" And if we ask Fitbit moderators here about this new sensor, are they to say nothing, because the software is not functional? Is that a better way to do business?

[OutOfTheBox]

There is nothing more health critical than heart rate. My Fitbit has already verified (to my satisfaction) something that I long suspected - I have occasional instances of Bradycardia while running. My heart rate abruptly drops in half for about 30 seconds and gradually returns to normal. It's something that I have verified by manual pulse taking in weight-lifting situations and suspected happened at other times.

In any case, the Fitbit gave me this medical information without FDA approval. The only thing that is driving the need for FDA approval with the SPO2 is the apnea indication. I really don't care about that and can't imagine that many people do. If you have it, you usually know or suspect it from other inputs.

I, and many others who have posted here, would simply like the SPO2 readings to be presented in the same fashion as the heart rate - without any medical diagnosis - even if it is only indicating change in SPO2 as opposed to a percentage of full saturation. That is far more valuable, and the presentation of data without analysis should not require FDA approval.

[SunsetRunner]

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@OutOfTheBoxwrote:

 the presentation of data without analysis should not require FDA approval.

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Source?

[WavyDavey]

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@OutOfTheBoxwrote:

There is nothing more health critical than heart rate. My Fitbit has already verified (to my satisfaction) something that I long suspected - I have occasional instances of Bradycardia while running. My heart rate abruptly drops in half for about 30 seconds and gradually returns to normal. It's something that I have verified by manual pulse taking in weight-lifting situations and suspected happened at other times.

In any case, the Fitbit gave me this medical information without FDA approval. The only thing that is driving the need for FDA approval with the SPO2 is the apnea indication. I really don't care about that and can't imagine that many people do. If you have it, you usually know or suspect it from other inputs.

I, and many others who have posted here, would simply like the SPO2 readings to be presented in the same fashion as the heart rate - without any medical diagnosis - even if it is only indicating change in SPO2 as opposed to a percentage of full saturation. That is far more valuable, and the presentation of data without analysis should not require FDA approval.

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I'm glad to hear your Fitbit helped you with your medical issue, however it is not designed to used that way.  I would say the interest in sleep apnea is hundreds of times more important to society than regular old SPO2 readings, which you can get from any finger device.

Also, you do realize the sensor does not provide absolute values, so you're not going to see Saturation = x%?  It's a relative sensor, which would be most useful in identifying sleep apnea. What use are you imagining for relative readings?

[OutOfTheBox]

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@WavyDaveywrote:

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Also, you do realize the sensor does not provide absolute values, so you're not going to see Saturation = x%?  It's a relative sensor, which would be most useful in identifying sleep apnea. What use are you imagining for relative readings?

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Yes. I've pointed out what they apparently mean by "relative SpO2" myself many times. The term is ambiguous because most SpO2 sensors report a percentage "relative to full saturation", much like "relative humidity". In Fitbit's case, it appears to mean "relative to the last saturation reading" according to academic papers I've read on the possibility of using a relative sensor to detect apnea.

In managing long-distance training, it would be nice to have a choice between managing to a constant SpO2 after warmup and managing to a constant heart rate. It would also be nice to have both in charts after the run. The relationship between the two and the pace and elevation charts could be informative. The first order derivative (rate of change) of the heart rate would also be useful. In short, I find it valuable in many activities to have indications of consistency, increase, or decrease.

[WavyDavey]

@OutOfTheBox, thanks for that explanation. I can see the use you are proposing. Hopefully it will apply to fitness like this, and not just be health.

[OutOfTheBox]

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@SunsetRunnerwrote:

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@OutOfTheBoxwrote:

 the presentation of data without analysis should not require FDA approval.

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Source?

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I have none other than their success in presenting HR without FDA approval. Whether it be HR, pace, temperature, SpO2, photos, or any other physical measurement that could have medical implications is irrelevant. 

[SunsetRunner]

Well I'm glad we're back to an intelligent conversation at least !