Another newbie needing help

[forestrider]

Hi, I need some help trying to figure out how many calories I can eat.  I was letting fitstar tell MFP how many calories I burned, and I would manually enter "bike ride" and such into MFP and let it calculate calories based on time of ride and intensity.  I was not having much luck losing weight that way, and purchased a Zip about two weeks ago and a Surge and Aria about a week ago now. 

The discrepancy is enormous, with Fitbit showing far fewer calories burned and as a result I'm eating less.  I haven't had major changes in weight in the last week, but I feel really hungry, and it seems like it couldn't be enough calories.  Today, for instance, I did 30 minutes of fitstar circuit training in the morning, worked 7 hours and logged almost 10000 steps, then did fitstar yoga for 35 minutes. 

Fitbit dashboard shows I've eaten enough at 1700 calories, whereas MFP shows I should still eat 500 calories.  Bike rides have the largest discrepancy.  MFP will give me 1000 calories where the Surge with HR will clock 400 for the same ride.

I'm tracking my weight with Aria as of about a week to try to sort this out, but in the meantime, I'm hungry and weak feeling, but not losing weight.  Any advice?

[Heybales]

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@forestrider wrote:

Hi, I need some help trying to figure out how many calories I can eat.  I was letting fitstar tell MFP how many calories I burned, and I would manually enter "bike ride" and such into MFP and let it calculate calories based on time of ride and intensity.  I was not having much luck losing weight that way, and purchased a Zip about two weeks ago and a Surge and Aria about a week ago now. 

The discrepancy is enormous, with Fitbit showing far fewer calories burned and as a result I'm eating less.  I haven't had major changes in weight in the last week, but I feel really hungry, and it seems like it couldn't be enough calories.  Today, for instance, I did 30 minutes of fitstar circuit training in the morning, worked 7 hours and logged almost 10000 steps, then did fitstar yoga for 35 minutes. 

Fitbit dashboard shows I've eaten enough at 1700 calories, whereas MFP shows I should still eat 500 calories.  Bike rides have the largest discrepancy.  MFP will give me 1000 calories where the Surge with HR will clock 400 for the same ride.

I'm tracking my weight with Aria as of about a week to try to sort this out, but in the meantime, I'm hungry and weak feeling, but not losing weight.  Any advice?

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Surge using HRM is going to overestimate calorie burn on strength training if Fitstar is that, and likely underestimate on Yoga as HR doesn't get high enough to start using calorie burn based on HR.

And based on steps it's way low estimate.

Manually log circuit training or strength training on Fitbit, and Yoga too.

Cardio is just fine with HRM function, whatever Fitbit comes up with is close enough, and better than rough estimate of database.

Was that bike ride a fast average because of tailwind longer than headwind, downhill longer and gradual to steeper faster uphill, or in a group ride drafting for great periods of time?

Nope, HRM better there.

As to the differences in goal - don't try to follow 2 roads to the same destination, it'll just cause confusion.

Set MFP to a realistic weight loss goal rate, about 1/2 lb per 20-25 lbs to lose, and then follow MFP's guide.

Here's the why the differences in eating goal left, 2nd section mainly, but read it all.

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10098937/faq-syncing-logging-food-exercise-calorie-a...

The being hungry could be you are attempting too large a deficit for amount left to lose.

Or body is attempting to make changes through exercise, and that takes a bit, hence the reason to account for it properly in eating level. So good job there.

[forestrider]

Thank you so much!  The FAQ was great.  I have a lot to learn....I'm still not clear on how to determine accurately how many calories I burned.  I would like to eat at a close deficit as you suggest, but I think my data is so far off I'm missing my mark by a wide margin.  I think I will get it sorted with more data as I go along here, but I could use any simple tips for logging calories burned accurately, and what pitfalls to avoid.  MFP manual entry for biking seemed way too high, and fitbit HR based calorie thing seems way too low. 

[Heybales]

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@forestrider wrote:

Thank you so much!  The FAQ was great.  I have a lot to learn....I'm still not clear on how to determine accurately how many calories I burned.  I would like to eat at a close deficit as you suggest, but I think my data is so far off I'm missing my mark by a wide margin.  I think I will get it sorted with more data as I go along here, but I could use any simple tips for logging calories burned accurately, and what pitfalls to avoid.  MFP manual entry for biking seemed way too high, and fitbit HR based calorie thing seems way too low. 

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Well, and the HR based formula for calorie burn make some big assumptions because of lack of stats.

I'm guessing by your username you already have been doing mountain bike riding for some time, and could be pretty fit despite the weight. This effect is really bad for you then.

Well, the Fitbit and cheaper Polars and many other HRM's that don't have stats for HRmax and VO2max must make some big assumptions to come up with those.

HRmax is usually 220-age, at least some units let you change that to better estimate if you know.

Because that's a major influence on calorie burn.

And bell curve of that formula being accurate is huge, majority have better chance of being over 10 bpm outside that range then in the range, especially women.

And if HRM thinks your HRmax is say 160 when it's really 180, and you easily do a whole workout avgHR 150 - HRM is going to think massive calorie burn from that aspect, it thinks you did 94% HRmax the whole time, when really you were at 83% HRmax. Big difference.

And then VO2max is based on BMI (height/weight) and if healthy range or not (age/gender).

So it's assumed unhealthy BMI is unfit VO2max, and vice-versa.

So you could have an assumed low VO2max, when it's really higher.

So it sees your fit lower HR as meaning you didn't push that hard, and gives lower calorie burn compared to what you actually accomplished.

In theory the effects of those 2 stats being assumed could cancel each other out, but rarely, since VO2max can be trained higher, but HRmax is genetically set, with exercise merely preventing it from lowering with age as much.

Are you getting you think accurate HR readings off your device? You tested that it really can reach the highs you reach, that it doesn't skip out for minutes at a time, ect?

If you trust the avgHR given, check out the spreadsheet on my profile page - the HRM tab.

Your stats at the top, use sections below to estimate your HRmax and VO2max, and then your personal calorie burn formula is at the bottom, based on a formula from a Polar funded research study.

Enter avgHR seen and time, and see if the calorie burn match up.

Or if you have access to treadmill and want to test it.

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/774337/how-to-test-hrm-for-how-accurate-calorie-burn...

Exercise is the only time you need to worry about these things. HR based calorie burn isn't used all day long below the aerobic exercise zone, it's step-based then.

[DominicJ]

Feeling hungry is more a function of volume and habit than it is of calories.
And it goes away quickly.

I don't eat breakfast and am not hungry till 1 or 2pm
If I eat breakfast for a week, I'll be ravenous by 10am the first time I miss it.

[forestrider]

Okay, I'm starting to understand better.  Thank you both for your helpful responses, I do have a lot to learn.

Haybales, no, I don't trust the HR at all.  It always drops out at my peak, and yes I do mountain bike a couple days a week, which is where I started seeing the big discrepancy.

I'm getting fit...started 30 min. circuit training 4 times a week about a year ago, and started yoga and calorie counting around the first of the year.  I have been out of shape for decades so I'm new to calories and watching my diet and all that.  I'm 45M, 5'6", 131lbs, Aria says 12.8% body fat. 

So, mainly I'm struggling with calorie accuracy.  I expect it exists on both sides, exercise and food.  Food I'm getting better at logging, but I try not to buy any food at the store so I'm not entirely sure the food I create here for myself matches the calories of the foods in the list.  I'm meticulous about logging at this point though, so it's probably close, but again, I am left wondering when I'm so tired and hungry. 

I really feel like I'm over doing it, but my weight is not going anywhere.  When I try to give myself a rest day  the calorie counter leaves me starving so I go exercise some more just so I can eat, then I'm exhausted....and so on.

[josephz2va]

Your heart rate is also different from a polar/garmin hr monitor on your chest. I noticed mine on average hits 129 BPM on the beginning of an HR Interval Training, and the watch hovers between 120 to 129 BPM.

[forestrider]

Thanks Joseph, I'm starting to think I need a chest strap HR, but I've invested in this fitbit program and was hoping the Surge could cover that need.  I don't want to buy another device, but I will if I need to.

[Heybales]

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@forestrider wrote:

Okay, I'm starting to understand better.  Thank you both for your helpful responses, I do have a lot to learn.

Haybales, no, I don't trust the HR at all.  It always drops out at my peak, and yes I do mountain bike a couple days a week, which is where I started seeing the big discrepancy.

I'm getting fit...started 30 min. circuit training 4 times a week about a year ago, and started yoga and calorie counting around the first of the year.  I have been out of shape for decades so I'm new to calories and watching my diet and all that.  I'm 45M, 5'6", 131lbs, Aria says 12.8% body fat. 

So, mainly I'm struggling with calorie accuracy.  I expect it exists on both sides, exercise and food.  Food I'm getting better at logging, but I try not to buy any food at the store so I'm not entirely sure the food I create here for myself matches the calories of the foods in the list.  I'm meticulous about logging at this point though, so it's probably close, but again, I am left wondering when I'm so tired and hungry. 

I really feel like I'm over doing it, but my weight is not going anywhere.  When I try to give myself a rest day  the calorie counter leaves me starving so I go exercise some more just so I can eat, then I'm exhausted....and so on.

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Wait - male 5' 6" and 130 lbs, 12.8% bodyfat?

So your goal isn't weight loss then, what it your goal concerning weight and fitness then?

[josephz2va]

The body fat I'm guessing is your question. I know many are aiming for the 8%. That can be achieved if you are consuming the right kinds of foods that reduce fat. Google foods to build lean muscle.

Cut out the evil foods. Donuts, Chocolate, Candy, Power Bars, Protein Shakes, etc. Aim for the good foods. Foods That Build Lean Muscle google search are what you should eat including Fruits and Veggies. If you're into convenience, there's always the veggie delite salad from subway and asking for every single veggie they have. Some of those veggies are burners.

[forestrider]

Well, I don't really know what's possible, to be honest.  I suppose I still feel like I have a bit to lose, and I'd like to see what is possible since fitness is new to me.   I'm not overweight, and I've always been athletic, but I can't seem to figure out the calories in/out thing.

My goal is to see what's possible, get myself down to where I have a defined stomach and low body fat with good overall fitness.  Then, I'd like to settle in to a decent program of maintenance eating and excercise that keeps me somewhere comfortable, but fit.  I imagine my body fat is close right now, but I'm struggling with the calories and would love to have a better handle on it, as I'm sort of suffering through the days right now and that can't be right.  I don't want to go back to 150lbs once I stop working at losing.

What I don't want is to do weight training, or get much bigger.  I've always been stocky and sort or muscular and I don't want to add a whole lot, rather, I'd like to get lighter and leaner, as much as possible for my body.

[josephz2va]

In vs Out confuses me as well. I focused on what my dietitian has me doing. Eating the prepped foods and avoiding all the bads. Only eating extra goods low and moderated. I'm not too focused on the weekends, but these two days I was with 2 veggie plates, 2 eggs, and little to no dessert snacks to go along with my prepared meals. Staying away from candy, chocolates, protein bars, powders, pills, etc.

Even though I had a -5000 deficit, it helped drop 2 pounds in those two good days.

[forestrider]

It's great to see your data, that helps me.  Good job!  I'm good at eating good food, it's all I have here since I try to create all my own food and don't buy much at all.  I only purchase brown rice and dry beans, everything else I make at home, so junk food isn't my problem.  I am struggling with calories from both sides, how to calculate accurately how much I burn, and how to figure out how many calories are in the food I create here at home since there is no packaging. 

Aria shows me up almost a pound today, although I'm down 2000 calories for the week according to fitbit.  Frustrating.  I've eaten around 1700 calories a day for the last few days, while exercising twice a day.  I suppose I need to eat less or exercise more, but I'm so hungry and tired at work!  I really want to sort this out.

[Heybales]

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@forestrider wrote:

Well, I don't really know what's possible, to be honest.  I suppose I still feel like I have a bit to lose, and I'd like to see what is possible since fitness is new to me.   I'm not overweight, and I've always been athletic, but I can't seem to figure out the calories in/out thing.

My goal is to see what's possible, get myself down to where I have a defined stomach and low body fat with good overall fitness.  Then, I'd like to settle in to a decent program of maintenance eating and excercise that keeps me somewhere comfortable, but fit.  I imagine my body fat is close right now, but I'm struggling with the calories and would love to have a better handle on it, as I'm sort of suffering through the days right now and that can't be right.  I don't want to go back to 150lbs once I stop working at losing.

What I don't want is to do weight training, or get much bigger.  I've always been stocky and sort or muscular and I don't want to add a whole lot, rather, I'd like to get lighter and leaner, as much as possible for my body.

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So you body wants a healthy weight, and you are attempting to push in to probably non-healthy territory.

Body builders maintaining low BF% have to really fight for it.

BTW, if you aren't doing lifting, you may be stocky or sort of muscular, but when the fat comes off, there won't be a defined stomach from cardio to see.

You'll need to have that small deficit, and with little margin for error because of stress on body, you'll need to log very accurately.

Take as a sign you aren't doing it right being tired. You can't do good workouts to transform your body if you are tired, no matter how mentally strong you are.

[forestrider]

Thanks again, I'm understanding better and better as we go here.

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@Heybales wrote:

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You'll need to have that small deficit, and with little margin for error because of stress on body, you'll need to log very accurately.

Take as a sign you aren't doing it right being tired. You can't do good workouts to transform your body if you are tired, no matter how mentally strong you are.

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Right, so this is what I have come to understand and what I am struggling with...hence this post.  How do I log accurately?  I don't trust Surge HR, and my exercise default calories burned are three times what Surge says. 

I appreciate the feedback and help, I have a much better handle on this now than I did yesterday.  I imagine sticking to my logging and weighing in every day and I'll get it sorted.  Thanks so much for the help, all of you.

[Heybales]

Outside of it actually seeing the HR accurately, you can test it giving a good estimate.

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/774337/how-to-test-hrm-for-how-accurate-calorie-burn...

And very true, results based TDEE is better than calculations, and better than devices which are probably as close as you can get.

Of course, with results based TDEE calculation, you don't know which part of the burn is accurate or not - but if you have about the same routine weekly, it gives a means of selecting a reasonable deficit and then eating goal daily.

Probably for a month, starting at the upper range of eating enough (because big deficit can include muscle mass and throw off the math), but not including any week of big change in exercise.

Weight change x 3500 / days = deficit or surplus to eating level (so that needs to be decently accurate too)

If you find you lose 2 lbs over 4 weeks, then daily deficit was really 250.

So TDEE is 250 more than whatever you ate on average daily.

So if you didn't want to lose, increase eating by 250 calories.

[SuperStephSteph]

Honestly if you still feel really hungry you're probably not eating enough. If I were you I'd just make it a priority to eat healthy whole foods when you feel hungry in between nutritious meals. When you're feeling hungry grab a fruit or veggie, if you eat whole foods low in calories and high in fiber you can have enough to fill you up without worrying so much about the calorie intake. The higher fiber content the more it will fill you up, and higher protein helps you stay full. If you're really hungry 1 cup of plain 0% greek yogurt is normally about 130 calories with around 23g of protein. Plain yogurt is a little sour so throw in a handfull of buleberries and you've got a snack that's under 200 calories and packs a HUGE amount of nutrients while really helping to fill you up.