Calorie Deficit confusion

[Miss-Velma]

I have a two-fold question, I suppose.

Part one is this: I recieved my weekly summary from FitBit and I am confused about the math involved. According to my week, I burned 23,232 calories (for the week) and then ate 12,656 calories (for the week). But it says in "calories in vs out": -3576 calories. Where does *that* number come from, because my math has it at -10,576 calories (which is more than it should be, I know. See the second half) My plan goal is -7000/week so is there something I am doing wrong here? 

Part two: I recently (as in, about 6 weeks ago) began a new job that has me a LOT more active than my previous job -- basically I went from working at a register to working a labor-intensive factory job. Around that time is when I started wearing and using my FitBit. At this new job, I average 15k steps a day and about 3000-3500 calories burned/day. I should be eating up to 2500 calories a day? That seems like such a lot when I am trying to lose weight, especially since most days I have not done more exercise than what I get at work. I find it really difficult to eat so much, especially because I don't have as much time to eat full meals. I end up eating protein and meal bars at work but maybe I should try some of those shakes? (I plan to work out more steadily when my schedule becomes straightened out, but I'm afraid if I do more exercise I'm going to have to eat way more!) If stats are important, I'm at 242 pounds/5'3", female. 

I guess I would just like an explanation of some kind from somebody who understands this stuff ^^ 

(Also, I'm headed to work shortly, so I apologize if you reply/offer an answer and I don't respond right away. Thank you in advance for any help or guidance). 

[Raviv]

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@catfan wrote:

Great this is helpful.  I should probably write TLDR at the beginning or end of many of my work emails.

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Be careful with that - then they really might "Didn't Read" them!

[Frank_fit]

I'm having problems eating my daily intake. I work in an active job so Burned 3380 calories. I had porrige with dried fruit for breakfast with skimmed milk 195 calories. Chicken vegtible soup for lunch 274 calories. This left me more than 1800 calories to eat for my main meal. I made a vegitable and sea curry with brown rice and managed to eat about half of the food I cooked which amounted to just under 1800 calories. Right now I feel bloated I don't know id I could eat that much on a regular basis. 

Daily Totals

Kilocalories 2324

Fat 36 g Fiber 51.3 g Carbs 306.5 g Sodium 1697.8 mg Protein 170.3 g

Water 1000 ml

Daily Kilocalorie Composition: 55% from carbs, 14% from fat and 31% from protein.

[Raviv]

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@Frank_fit wrote:

I'm having problems eating my daily intake. I work in an active job so Burned 3380 calories. I had porrige with dried fruit for breakfast with skimmed milk 195 calories. Chicken vegtible soup for lunch 274 calories. This left me more than 1800 calories to eat for my main meal. I made a vegitable and sea curry with brown rice and managed to eat about half of the food I cooked which amounted to just under 1800 calories. Right now I feel bloated I don't know id I could eat that much on a regular basis. 

Daily Totals

Kilocalories 2324

Fat 36 g Fiber 51.3 g Carbs 306.5 g Sodium 1697.8 mg Protein 170.3 g

Water 1000 ml

Daily Kilocalorie Composition: 55% from carbs, 14% from fat and 31% from protein.

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Boosting your fat intake is an easy way to increase calorie consumption, and you do need it anyway

since it looks like it's only 14% of your diet now.  Fats are 9 calories per gram as opposed to 4 calories per gram for protein and carbs, so the same amount counts for more calories.  Just make sure they're really good fats.  Grab an avocado, eat the egg yolk, have some nuts, grill some fatty fish, eat whole fat dairy.

[Frank_fit]

Thanks for that I have almost completely cut fat out of the diet. I suppose I need to look at healthy fats as well as carbs and protien. I'll look at adding some nuts to my oats in the morning and might make it with full fat milk instead of Skimmed milk. An egg in my salad tomorrow night might also help. 

Having a mug of hot milk before I go to bed tonight too. 

[extra_medium]

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@pardog wrote:

I too am mail carrier and my tracker tells me I burn over 4000 cai per day yet take in approx. 2850,a deficit of over 1200 per day!My doc suggested that their may be some problem wiyh yhe info being trackedas well because my average per day walking is btween 11 and 12(25000 to 30000 steps) milesper day yet am losing no weight.Answers

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If you're not losing weight, you're not in a calorie deficit.  How accurately are you tracking calories in?  If you're not weighing your portions and being as accurate as possible it is pretty easy to consume a lot more than you think you are.

[divedragon]

If you really want to loose weight, don''t use the calculated calorie burn to set your deficite on.  Mine also says I burn over 3k a day, but I know that's not correct.  I know when I was in the Army, they estimated a soldier in the field burned around 3500k a day and that's why C-rations and now MREs contain about 3-3.5k each (often it was the only meal we got for the day).  A fully loaded combat soldier is a lot more active than most of us (certianly me).

I use the BMR average for a male of my size which is 2k per day.  Based on that, I targe 1500-1800 calories in per day and I've been loosing consistently 1-2 lbs a week.  Fitbit is a tool, not a fix by itself.  For me, its a motivator, but I don't live and die by the numbers.  They can show trends and consistantcies, but as for a true, scientific measure of our metabolic processes, it just isn't that sophisticated.  There are way too many variables that it just doesn't measure.

[SharonH123]

Further to what @divedragon wrote, some related comments:

Changes in lean body mass have a significant impact on BMR. As you lose weight, if you have a lot to lose, some of the loss will come from muscle which will reduce BMR. Calculators for BMR just provide estimates based on what is normal. But they do not factor in how much body fat you are carrying - especially internal fat. (ie around organs)

With steroids, I've had massive weight gains and then losses. A few years ago my BMR tested in 1800's, then in 1600's. I rarely ate over 2k a day and couldn't understand why I was gaining. I recently had BMR tested again and now it's in 1300's. Reducing calories by about 400 now has put me in active loss mode.

As far as reported burn with Fitbit - I don't see it as an formulaic approach 'as is.' These are estimates of what would be expected. If you see a certain deficit isn't producing losses, then that means your burn might be overreported. But conversely, it could be the reverse situation too - too large a deficit for too long can result in plateauing. I've experienced this and had to boost my caloric intake to see the scale start to move again.

[Elenita]

2850 calories is way too much to lose weight. Try 1500

Sent from my iPhone

[Jackthetastic1]

Finally put into words I understand.   My deficit is 1,000 cals, and i keep coming up short each night.  I guess I'll have to start heading to Dairy Queen before bed to get the "nailed it".  

I keep coming up short with my "calories remaining".  Probably because with the fitbit on my arm i am constantly reminded that i want to be able to fit into pants that button.

[CherylMD]

Thank you so much this is the most useful information I have found, when that fuel guage thing said over I stopped eating yet the "calories left to eat" was saying I still have 200-300, I had been doing well but with the final 5-6 kilo to lose I was struggling Now I realize I was actually under eating I also did not realize the deficit as already calculated so my deficet was twice of what it should have been. Cheers and than you once again .

[DG-Williams]

That is my problem. I am in the process of losing weight but even though I've still got a lot to lose (60+lbs) I'm also after losing 100+. i bought the fit bit to see if I'm actually active enough or not because things are slowing down. I get over 10,000 steps a day but it's also saying by the end of the day I need to eat an additional 1300+ calories. Now I'm thinking I should stop my additional bike workout. I don't want my body holding onto my weight, But eating that much extra calories in healthy food would be insane. Plus I'm part of a program that makes suggested servings from the food guide so I'll have to go against one program. Now I'm worried that this fit bit is going to confuse me even more while trying to lose.

[QueenAnn]

I do not understand the whole deficit thing. I have mine set to 1000. Are you supposed to eat until you are in the zone on the budget, and does the deficit factor into that. Like right now I have burned 2298 calories and have logged 1361 and under budget. I don't get it. Just tell me why I am not losing weight. I burn 18k calories a week and only eat 10k. I am eating mostly fruits and veggies.

[divedragon]

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@QueenAnn wrote:

I do not understand the whole deficit thing. I have mine set to 1000. Are you supposed to eat until you are in the zone on the budget, and does the deficit factor into that. Like right now I have burned 2298 calories and have logged 1361 and under budget. I don't get it. Just tell me why I am not losing weight. I burn 18k calories a week and only eat 10k. I am eating mostly fruits and veggies.

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the 2298 is probably pretty high.  Unless you are doing a lot, and I mean a LOT of exercise, you're probably not going to burn that much.  I find the fitbit calories burn estimates to be on the high side to the extreme.  If you eat what it tells you even with a 1k deficite set, I'd almost promise you'll gain, not loose weight.

Figure that no matter what you do, you're going to burn 2k a day and reduce your calories from there.   The previous poster mentioned about loosing muscle as well - this is why I suggest you manage your calories using Intermittent Fasting.  When in a fasting state, your body engages a process known as muscle sparing in which it ceases burning muscle in order to preserve it to go 'hunt' for food.  Your body converts to burning ketone bodies produced from oxidizing fat to provide all the energy you need.  In fact, studies show that lean to fat ratios increase when practicing IF as opposed to straight calorie restriction.  

I'll get some pushback from others on this next statement, but based on the clinical studies I've read, a calorie is not a calorie.  Different macro nutrient trigger different responses in the body and most notiable in the fat world is insulin.  Insulin will do one of two things - put sugar in your muscle cells or put it in fat cells.  The first path is active untill the muscle cells are satisfied, then switch to the latter so long as serum (blood) glucose is above a certain range (typically above 100).  If you don't have sugar in your blood stream, your body doesn't produce insulin in any significant quantity.

Another term you may have heard is ketosis which is popular among advocate of the Atkins diet.  Ketosis is a state where your body is oxidizing fat to produce ketone bodies your muscles and brain can use for energy.  This fat can be either stored fat or dietary fat.  Either way, when we are oxidizing fat to the degree we enter this state of ketosis (>0.6mM serum) we have shut down insulin production and are living off of the ketone bodies.  So there are a couple of points here: 1) eating a diet high in good fats will help maintain you in this ketogenic state and 2) ensuring your cosumed calories is less than your needs, the oxidized fat will come from your stored fat cells. 

I'm not an advocate of the Atkins diet because it says high protein and protein does get converted to glucose in the blood.  I advocate a high fat, low carb diet with 70% fat, 20% protein and 10% carbs.  That seems pretty low on carbs I know, but if you eat the right foods, its not only healthy, but will help you loose weight.  Let's just assume we have a 2100 calorie a day target and we devide that into 3 700 calorie meals.  One of those meals could be 2 cups of brocoli, 2 cups of turnip greens and an 8 oz ribeye steak.  That's a whole lot of food at one sitting and you're UNDER 700 calories (add a little cheese to that brocolli!).  The key to the diet is to eat carbs in the form of vegetables grown above ground.  Fat and fiber are both mitigators of insulin production as well.

The human body cannot be reduced to the simple calories in, calories out method.  When our bodies rely on glucose as it's source of energy and you reduce, but do not eliminate glucose, you eventually adjust to the level of glucose coming in.  So if your BMR is 2000 and you reduce by 500 calories for several weeks/months, your BMR will eventually reduce to the 1500.  Fasting has an opposite effect becuase you switch to a fat burning mode (ketosis) and as long as you have stored fat, there is no shortage for energy and your metabolism will not reduce - and in fact several studes show it increases. 

Fasting causes several other things to occur in the body that include:  Increased growth hormone, increased stem cell production, autophagy and increased insulin resistence.  What all this means is that when your body doesn't need to devote energy to digesting food, it starts cleaning itself up by getting rid of dead and dying cells and coverting the increased stem cells using the increased growth hormone to replace those it flushed out.  36-48 hour fasts have the greatest effect on this, but shorter fasts (16 hours) are also effective when done regularly.

If you want to know more about this, I recommend starting with Dr. Jason Fungs site for intensive dietary management.  He is a kidney specilist that works a lot with Type 2 Diabetics and has been studying nutriion and obesity since early 2000.  His website is:  https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/author/jfung/

Additionally, look at some of the work done by Professor Valter D. Longo, director of Southern California institute of Longevity.  He has studied fasting as a protection against age related cognitive deseases such as Alzimer and Parkinson's.  This same research has been duplicated by the American Association of Neurological Surgeons.  One of the studies by Professor Longo is found here:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946160/

And here is a study done on normal weight people fasting:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24215592

This is a lot of information and highly contested by many people, but it is also emerging science.  I can provide more clinical studies that show the benefits if you're interested.  We're just learning how complex the body is, espeically in the area of nutrition and how it affects overall health.  They used to say things like coffee, butter and eggs were all bad for you, but now they say the opposite.  Things, they are a changin'! 

[FitBeforeFifty]

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@divedragon wrote:

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The human body cannot be reduced to the simple calories in, calories out method.  When our bodies rely on glucose as it's source of energy and you reduce, but do not eliminate glucose, you eventually adjust to the level of glucose coming in.  So if your BMR is 2000 and you reduce by 500 calories for several weeks/months, your BMR will eventually reduce to the 1500. 

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I maintained a 500 calorie deficit for 9 months losing weight consistently while eating 200 - 300 grams of carbs per day. When I got to my goal weight I had my BMR measured and it matched the expected BMR for my age, height and weight. This doesn't seem to match your proposed model of glucose matching adaptive thermogenesis.

In a recent study performed at the NIH (funded by a low carb advocacy group [NuSI]) they demonstrated an increase in RMR and TDEE of subjects in a ketogenic state but that increase was temporary during the adaptation phase. Once the subject were "fat adapted" and in a persistent ketogenic state their RMR and TDEE returned to baseline which demonstrates there is no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. It also demonstrated that the rate of fat loss was the same independent of the insulin levels of the subjects when they compare the low fat diet to a low carb diet.

A lot of research has been done on ketogenic diets prescribed to patients struggling with epilepsy. These are cases where people follow the diet religiously for 1 year or more because of the consequences. While a ketogenic diet does help with epilepsy, when they compare energy expenditure over the long term they don't find any metabolic benefit:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24749520

"After 15 months of the ketogenic diet, linear growth status declined while weight status and REE were unchanged. REE remained reduced in children with CP."

[A_Lurker]

@QueenAnn - how long have you been logging/tracking, and what type of tracker do you have.  I have a charge HR and I find for me it's fairly accurate on calories.  My personal experience is that too little food will in fact stall my weight loss.  It's almost like my body thinks it better hold on to the weight until I eat a little more.  I just spent over a week eating exactly what my tracker told me I burned and pretty much maintained the same weight (down a statistically insignificant amount).  Three days back to my usual 1000 calorie defecit and I'm down over a pound.  I started the maintenance because I stopped seeing the consistent 2lb/week loss.

So, back to your question, budget is an estimate on what the tracker thinks you're going to eat by the end of the day.  If you are more or less active in the evening hours it can throw it off.  I usually look where I actually am around 10pm and decide if I'll have a snack or not.  I am very bad during the day at keeping up with where I should be.  I try, as I know my energy levels are lower at the end of the day if I don't (and that makes me less active overall).

My original question was how long you were tracking.  So many things can affect weight - hydration, water retention (salty meal), time of the month if you're in that age range.  Weight loss is not linear.  Maybe some people see exactly the same loss daily, but I believe most people who weigh daily see lots of ups and downs.  As long as the trend is going down try to see that as a victory.

Biggest drop overnight - 2lbs, biggest jump up +1.8 lbs (over 2 days, but the day I skipped I got up at 3am, could have been even higher).  Neither real losses or gains, but looking at the overall trend is more important.

[FitBeforeFifty]

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@A_Lurker wrote:

@QueenAnn - how long have you been logging/tracking, and what type of tracker do you have.  I have a charge HR and I find for me it's fairly accurate on calories. 

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I also have a charge HR and it's fairly inaccurate. I think the difference in accuracy might be your activity level. From what I've observed (my calories in, calories out and weight) and what I've calculated (compared the fitbit to METs) my charge HR overestimated my TDEE by 750 calories per day. If I actually ate what fitbit tells me to eat to maintain my weight I would gain weight fairly rapidly.

When I've compared the the charge HR exercise estimates for activity they seem to match METs pretty closely. Given that, I have to assume the overestimate comes from NEAT and so the more active (but not exercise) minutes you have the more likely it is overestimate your calorie burn.

[FitBeforeFifty]

@QueenAnn, given what I said above about the inaccuracy of my fitbit charge HR for very active people, it's certainly possible that your fitbit is overestimating your calorie burn.

If you use this to calculate your BMR, what number does it give you ?

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

If you go to the fitbit food report, what does it show for your average Food intake ?

If you provide those 2 numbers (we can already see your steps per day on your profile), we might be able to help.

[divedragon]

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@FitBeforeFifty wrote:

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@divedragon wrote:

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The human body cannot be reduced to the simple calories in, calories out method.  When our bodies rely on glucose as it's source of energy and you reduce, but do not eliminate glucose, you eventually adjust to the level of glucose coming in.  So if your BMR is 2000 and you reduce by 500 calories for several weeks/months, your BMR will eventually reduce to the 1500. 

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In a recent study performed at the NIH (funded by a low carb advocacy group [NuSI]) they demonstrated an increase in RMR and TDEE of subjects in a ketogenic state but that increase was temporary during the adaptation phase. Once the subject were "fat adapted" and in a persistent ketogenic state their RMR and TDEE returned to baseline which demonstrates there is no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. It also demonstrated that the rate of fat loss was the same independent of the insulin levels of the subjects when they compare the low fat diet to a low carb diet.

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@FitBeforeFiftyJust to be clear as a lot of people are confusing my remarks.  I am NOT saying a ketogenic diet guards against metabolic changes.  I'm saying Intermittent fast is the protector here.  The changes in the body when in a fasted stated include increased BMR's.   I advocate a ketogenic diet and I can show studies in which people do lose more weight doing them, but there are also cases where it doesn't. Here is one study summation done by Stanford:

https://med.stanford.edu/nutrition/nutrition-studies-group/completed-studies/comparative-weight-loss...

I've done some self-testing and I can actually gain weight while being in ketosis.  Ketosis is not only a function of burning stored fat, but also of dietary fat and absent of carbs to increase glucose in the blood.  Protien can also increase glucose in the blood if eaten in high enough quantitites.  But if you eat too much fat - calorie wise - exceeding your daily need, you will gain weight while being in ketosis.  The typical result of a ketogenic diet; however, is that it satiates you better and you tend to eat less as a natural course - again I say tend not will.

There are many other factors involoved as well such as alcohol consumption.  On a ketogenci diet, consuming non-carb/low-carb drinks such as whiskey, vodka, etc will allow you stay in ketosis, but stall fat loss.  The human, and for that matter all living organisms, are very complex and I surmise that much of the controversy around diet and weight management has to do with variables that can affect the outcome, but aren't always considered in the studies done.  Things like stress level, amount and quality of sleep, adherence (especially in human trials) to protocol and a pethoria of other variables. 

The reason I'm adament about a ketogenic diet; however, is that you must have some degree of ketosis in order to loose weight.  It may not reach the level of being consider ketosis (>0.6mMl), but it is a neccesary by product of fat oxidation.  The reason I advocate them is the tendancy to eat less and to create awareness around eating.  As I also advocate IF, a ketogenic diet helps in the transition between fasting and feeding.

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[rfc1995]

@divedragon - a question and an aside.  First, thanks -- your thoughts have been helpful as I'm starting this out.  (On like day four or five, and trying to do IF).  question:  Among those variables you mentioned, are there particular meds etc that help or hinder?  Not talking supplements here, although I'll have to look at that I guess, more like efficacy or reactions with NSAIDS, etc, that you know of.  Very broad question I guess - just wanted to know if there were things one had to be more careful of.

the aside -- I laughed at the "fasting and feeding" reference.  sounds so...vampire-esque!

thanks as always.

[divedragon]

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@rfc1995 wrote:

@divedragon - a question and an aside.  First, thanks -- your thoughts have been helpful as I'm starting this out.  (On like day four or five, and trying to do IF).  question:  Among those variables you mentioned, are there particular meds etc that help or hinder?  Not talking supplements here, although I'll have to look at that I guess, more like efficacy or reactions with NSAIDS, etc, that you know of.  Very broad question I guess - just wanted to know if there were things one had to be more careful of.

the aside -- I laughed at the "fasting and feeding" reference.  sounds so...vampire-esque!

thanks as always.

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@rfc1995

First of all, congratulations on the decision to give IF a try.  I think you'll find its a great way of life. 

Not being a doctor or anything like that, I couldn't give other than layman's advice about this.  I do have a friend who takes a cortisol supplement as his body doesn't produce any and this can cause him to gain weight.  He does fasting as part of his spiritual beliefs and not for weight loss, but if he goes off his medication he experiences rapid weight loss.  I'm also aware that some steroid medications such as prednisone can cause weight gain, but I don't know how it would affect fasting or visa versa.  If you are taking any prescription medications, I would advise checking with your doctor or pharmacist on possible specific contraindicators.

Here's a link to some FAQ's on fasting:  http://www.dietdoctor.com/intermittent-fasting-faq

As to supplements, some bodybuilders take a branch chained amino acid when fasting as they believe it helps with muscle retention, but I really don't think it has much effect due to the muscle sparing effect of fasting.  Besides, most BCAA's are a racket and made from things like hair and not really BCAA.

As to the aside, I always think of back holes when I think of feeding and fasting!  But then I am a geek!