Psychology Focus

[LordHeathen]

Hello and welcome everyone,

I am currently studying towards a Bsc (hons) Psychology degree (6 years) and I have found many topics and issues raised in these forums to be attributed to psychological factors. Please feel free to contribute as this topic will help me in my own understanding of my subject for revision purposes so thank you in advance for your time. However, please bear in mind that there are no right or wrong answers in this field, just a set of arguments supported by a form/forms of evidence, so please respect other people's views.

So, to kick things off, I am currently looking into behaviourism. In short, one argument relates to how it is the consequences that can reinforce behaviour:

For example, in winter a person may not want to go for a run in the cold, so a consequence could be the warm feeling of a living room with a hot cup of tea and tv as a reinforcement for not going for a run.

The theory, then explains that if you change the consequence, you can in effect change the behaviour, but many other theorists disagree with this view. Is there something you can relate this to in your own life?

[divedragon]

I would submit that the real consequences of not going for a run in the winter is getting fat, lethargic and poor health.  The realization of those consequences may change behavior if someones base values include maintaining health.

This was essentially what happened to me.  I was very active in high school and in college I was in ROTC that resulted in 7 years of Military after college, so I was conditioned to stay in shape.  Even for years after the Army, I continued running 4 miles several days a week.  That continued until 2004 when I changed careers and began to travel and sit at a desk and eat out a lot.  The running ceased primarily due to work load in the beginning and the weight began to pile on slowly.  Then some perosnal things happened and I put on weight fast.  Then I started seeing my reflection in windows and my appearence in the mirror getting out of the shower and became disgusted with how I looked.  Combine that with a  new fitbit and I knew it was time to get myself healthy again.

That is the motivation that gets me up at 5 am to go running.  The weathers cold now, so I do it in a gym near the hotel on a treadmill.  I believe the motivation to exercise has to come from within and be stronger than a warm living room.  It has to come from a deep seated belief that its important.  If changing consequences really worked, recitivism for criminals wouldn't be as high. 

[Raviv]

The focus of the reward/punishment has to be immediate for many (like me).

I had several "knock out" concussions as a child, which didn't seem to do too much damage other than making me a tiny bit ADHD-ish.

But another nasty knockout concussion a few years ago and a lesser concussion a few months after the first have negatively impacted my impulse control somewhat.  Long term consequences don't have much bearing on my current actions.

For me, it's less about long term reward and more about habit, as well as changing the identity I select for myself (for instance, to "athlete" - athletes eat and act a certain way), that impact my choices.

[LordHeathen]

@Raviv and @divedragon,

Many thanks for your contribution and for sharing your own personal experiences. Also, well done for your successes in taking the step towards a healthier lifestyle.

It is interesting that motivation is a key theme you guys have suggested and also by the behaviour reinforcement mentioned.

A consequence of not training, may well lead to physical factors such as gaining weight etc, but what are the thought processes, is it as simple as not wanting to become unfit or have your body change in a way you don't like?, How does this account for the people who want to loose weight, but cannot motivate themselves?

Could we look into the consequences of an individual's inaction to motivate, or what about their current actions?

Also, punishment and reward are good examples of how some people do motivate themselves.

Positive reinforcement - Adding something to increase behaviour frequency (I.e. a reward for behaving in a certain way).

Negative Reinforcement - Taking something away to increase behaviour frequencey (i.e. imagine a loud noise and every time you turn it off you get a reward)

Punishment Reinfrocement - decreasing the frequency of a behaviour (Imagine experience something unpleasant everytime you went to eat a cake, like a loud bell perhaps, this could stop you from eating cake?)

What do you think and what can you add from your own experiences?

Many Thanks for comments.

[divedragon]

---

@LordHeathen

@LordHeathen wrote:

@Raviv and @divedragon,

It is interesting that motivation is a key theme you guys have suggested and also by the behaviour reinforcement mentioned.

A consequence of not training, may well lead to physical factors such as gaining weight etc, but what are the thought processes, is it as simple as not wanting to become unfit or have your body change in a way you don't like?, How does this account for the people who want to loose weight, but cannot motivate themselves?

Could we look into the consequences of an individual's inaction to motivate, or what about their current actions?

Also, punishment and reward are good examples of how some people do motivate themselves.

Positive reinforcement - Adding something to increase behaviour frequency (I.e. a reward for behaving in a certain way).

Negative Reinforcement - Taking something away to increase behaviour frequencey (i.e. imagine a loud noise and every time you turn it off you get a reward)

Punishment Reinfrocement - decreasing the frequency of a behaviour (Imagine experience something unpleasant everytime you went to eat a cake, like a loud bell perhaps, this could stop you from eating cake?)

What do you think and what can you add from your own experiences?

---

The motivation has to come from within.  I don't think you can apply external motivation - i.e.: reward and punishment - to effect long term change.  Some people will loose in the short term, but go right back to bad habits and undo the work. 

The pleasure chemicals of the brain are engaged in many different ways.  We can stimulate them with food, sex and abstract things like accomplishments that result in praise or some form of adolation.  These chemicals are so strong we seek them out and it's almost like an addiction, the more often we feel them, the more often we want them and we attempt to avoid those things that take them away.

In this regard, dieting is about taking away things that give us pleasure in the short term in order to attain them at a later date in the form of self and/or external adolation at our accomplishment and our appearance.  This requires us to be able to project clearly that future state and accept the short term lack of pleasure and, in some cases, percieved pain in exchange for that pleasure down the road.

Most of us tend to opt for short term gratification rather than postponing it into the future.  This is where, I believe, most people fail in that they have difficulty being able to project future satisfaction for short term sacrifice.  Most diet plans are designed to try and address this with promises of fullness, great taste and other gimicks that attempt to remove the negative side of dieting.  They typically don't work and people loose motivation quickly.

It also seems our bodies fight against us in this regard.  We have predictive hormones that tell us when we should be hungry rather than when we actually are hungry.  I started practicing intermittent fasting back in October and I currently eat just one meal per day.  It takes about two weeks to 'train' your body to this lifestyle due to these hormones telling me I should be eating now.  But today, I can easily go 20 hours without eating, then eating a sensible meal.  I'm working towards a 36 hour fast a couple of times a month.

As i mentioned in the earlier post, I had negative reinforcement from seeing my fat self in reflection and recalling what I looked like when I was in shape.  Positive reinforcement comes from seeing the fat melt away and my fitter body slowly revealing itself.  But these are both very slow.  I also get motivated by knowing I can jog for 40 minutes where a year ago I couldn't jog for 10 minutes.  I recognize I've got more energy and my mood is genereally better, but none of these things happend overnight.  How many mornings when the alarm went off at 5 am did I want to shut it off and go back to sleep?  How many times did my negative thoughts tell me how much I was going to suffer as I walked outside to start my run?  How many times did I fight NOT to pull into that drive through or buy a bag of potato chips at the store?  The answer:  A LOT!  And each time I had to project the future me and visualize the pleasure I'll get down the road.

Some people have had success by substituting one pleasure for another.  Without food, sex can be a strong motivator as well, but for many reason, that tends to fail too.  Body image can make ones sex drive diminish as does obesity in and of itself.  Lack of sexual partners, depression and other maladies can reduce the desire.

On top of all this, evidence is emerging that some foods, especially those high in carbohydrates, may actually stimulate a morphine like response in our brains, adding to the pleasure sensation.  Flour is one of these and a food that is increasingly implicated in the obesity epidemic.  Sugar is another.  If this is true then food can be an addictive drug that increases the desire to use it.  The same reason so many drug addicts can't quit without help and the recidivism rate is so high after rehab.

So in our modern society with access to food that over stimulates our pleasure centers 24/7/365, it makes it very difficult for someone to deny themselves these pleasures.  These pleasure responses were an evolutionary survial mechanism to motivate us to go hunt for food which often meant we went hours to days without food.  It was accepted as a way of life, but now we don't need to go without.  We can have these pleasures all the time.

Some can argue eating healthy is the answer.  I've been eating healthy years before I lost the weight.  I purchased my food from local, organic farms, ate fruits and veggies, high quality protein.  My meat was even organic, pasture raised, no drugs.  The problem was I just ate too much.  I'm a really good cook and my food tastes awesome, so I ate and ate.  I also was inactive with a desk job and no exercise.  I pretty much eat the same foods today, but less of it and I exercise a LOT more.  Again, the motivation was how looked and felt and remembering and projecting a future me.

[Raviv]

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@LordHeathen wrote:

@Raviv and @divedragon,

Many thanks for your contribution and for sharing your own personal experiences. Also, well done for your successes in taking the step towards a healthier lifestyle.

It is interesting that motivation is a key theme you guys have suggested and also by the behaviour reinforcement mentioned.

A consequence of not training, may well lead to physical factors such as gaining weight etc, but what are the thought processes, is it as simple as not wanting to become unfit or have your body change in a way you don't like?, How does this account for the people who want to loose weight, but cannot motivate themselves?

Could we look into the consequences of an individual's inaction to motivate, or what about their current actions?

Also, punishment and reward are good examples of how some people do motivate themselves.

Positive reinforcement - Adding something to increase behaviour frequency (I.e. a reward for behaving in a certain way).

Negative Reinforcement - Taking something away to increase behaviour frequencey (i.e. imagine a loud noise and every time you turn it off you get a reward)

Punishment Reinfrocement - decreasing the frequency of a behaviour (Imagine experience something unpleasant everytime you went to eat a cake, like a loud bell perhaps, this could stop you from eating cake?)

What do you think and what can you add from your own experiences?

Many Thanks for comments.

---

Speaking only for myself in my present state:

Positive reinforcement - it would have to be immediate.  I know working out or turning down that cake will make me feel and look better in the long run, but there is already immediate positive reinforcement in not having to work out or eating the cake.

Negative reinforcment - I can't think of any that would be very effective unless they were incredibly harsh, and again, it would have to be immediate for it to work with me.

Punishment reinforcement - yeah, not going to work with me.  The minute you say I can't do something and there will be punishment, I'll do it just prove that I have free will and can't be manipulated.  You can see how much fun it was to be my parents.  😉  Thankfully, they were smart enough to know this.

I do think I'm not alone in not being very well influenced by long term effects, either positive or negative.  Someone who is 200 pounds overweight certainly knows that eating a whole pizza will only make their situation worse, but the immediate good feelings are pretty influential.  Later, when the pizza is gone, then yes, you see the damage you're doing, but it's already too late.

[weaver8082]

Oh this topic relates so much with my real life. In my day job I'm a behavior therapist. Let me tell you most children (the population that I typically deal with), and people in general, respond best to an immediate positive reinforcement. In general humans of all ages have problems with delaying gratification. I exercise and eat right I want to see a immediate change to that scale at the end of the week versus seeing a change six months from now. In reality I understand that the six month from now progress is a better indication of how well I'm doing it's just not very motivating in the short term.

For instance when we are working to change a specified behavior (A) we typically pair our reinforcer with a new substitute behavior (B). During situations we want to see behavior B not A. When the person exhibits behavior B they get immediate reinforcement of whatever motivates them. If they exhibit behavior A it is put on extinction, so in other words the behavior is ignored.

The thing to remember is a lot of what motivates people in the beginnning is extrinsic in nature; the goal is to get that motivation to be intrinsic in nature. In other words don't do the behavior because I'm asking you to, do it because you want to. A great real life example is when people that work out or go on crash diets for vanity reasons or for a certain life events sometimes may not be able to maintain their momentum after said life event. Their motivation for that reinforcer (weight loss) is not great enough for the reinforcer to be effective anymore. This has been were my issue is. Before I was attempted weight loss when my husband was deployed. I would acheive my goals to some degree and when he got home my aspirations went on the window lol. Next deployment same thing and then wash, rinse, repeat for 13 years. Within the past six months my motivation has shifted to being intrinsic in nature. I like the way I feel when I exercise and eat right. The weight loss and looking better is just a bonus.

Now after saying all that and excuse me for my wordy response lol I agree with most people here. The reinforcement has to be immediate and strong enough to support the behavior change. I would posit that those people who are able to delay their gratification in say weight loss, also have intrisic motivations for their behavior (or for wanting to change their behavior) but are also long term planners in other areas of thier life. 

[LordHeathen]

Hello everyone,

Thank you once again for your inciteful responses and also for sharing your individual stories. Well done to @divedragon, the military experience really seems to have helped your drive and determination to succeed which is brilliant so well done. @Raviv, I can relate to being a bit rebellious even today lol! @weaver8082 thank you for your specific insight, very helpful and interesting.

Ok, so I guess what the general theme here is between something we call elicited behaviour and emitted behaviour.

So, imagine that you have something that causes you to respond in some way, we call this elicited behaviour. Now imagine, that you behave completely freely, but as a result of your behaviour a consequence is formed and depending on how you percieve it (Positive or Punishment) can promote or discourage a certain behaviour (apologies if this makes no sense, I am trying not to use psychological jargon hehe!)

How does this relate to becoming healthier or fitter?

You see cake, carrots, protien, whatever, and you eat it - elicited behaviour .

This is caused by a stimulus or trigger.

You see cake and decide not to eat it or eat it (lol! Freely doing what you want), then as a result and depending on how you feel (good or bad) may cause you to carry on or not with this behaviour - emitted behaviour.

Reading between the lines

If I may, I would like to focus this conversation on the thoughts behind the behaviours or cognitve processes and the term , which simply means liking or disliking something because it has been linked to a postive or negative object, person, thing, thought, whatever!

So, I am guessing you guys might think directly of advertising and how this has affected whether or not we eat, drink, go to the gym or generally become more unhealthy or healthy. However, I think this is too simple an explanation, and I think that maybe how we were influenced as we progressed into adulthood may have had an evaluative conditioning effect onto the things we do or don't like.

So my question for you would be, can we decide what we want to do freely, or has it been influenced to us somewhere in our life?

I understand this is a massively broad question, which is why it is good to use when having a debate as this could conjur up a very rich source of information.

Personally, I have reflected on my life, and everything I could identify as me being influenced by something or someone, I have attempted to address. For example, my mum is scared of spiders and so was I, my sister hated sprouts so never gave them to me, my work colleagues would always go to Mcdonalds at lunch, etc.

Thanks for your input and we shall all look forward to more. 🙂

[weaver8082]

I honestly don't think that our basic everyday behaviors are driven by our own free will, we have been conditioned to behave that way. So yes while you may think that you are making the decision to do <whatever> there is really a complex series of things going on. This is especially evident in the relationship people have with food. Based on what you were exposed to growing up and what was normative for your family carries on into adulthood unless something comes along and changes your paradigm.

In my own life I have such a messed up relationship with food due to influences growing up in a strict military household with parents that also apparently had food issues. We had to ask to eat, had to clean your plate, etc. Exercise was not a thing that was done in my household growing up. My father had to exercise being in the military, but that did not carry over into his home life. Once he retired exercise was never done (to my knowledge). I assume that is the same way he grew up - if I base that off my observations of his family of origin. Food was used as a reward and a punishment in my house. I have been actively trying to break those thoughts and feelings that I associate with food for the better part of 20 years. Its a constant uphill struggle lol.

Now the way that you phrased your question it seems to me more like you are speaking of attitudes towards things. That is an interesting subject because our attitudes are formed by our current knowledge of something; as we gain new knowledge we reevaluate and that knowledge may change or reinforce our attitude. 

My attitude towards food and exercise growing up was that junk food was a reward and a comfort and exercise wasn't needed. These feeling were all influenced by other people throughout my childhood. When I was sad I reached for pizza not a salad because I had been conditioned to think that would make me feel better (which it so rarely did). Now that I'm married with my own family I have been changing my relationship and my choices with food into eating more nutritionally rich food, and with exercise because it makes me feel better. I also don't want to pass on an unhealthy relationship with food to my child. Which leads me back to not acting freely as I was influenced to do this by being responsible for a tiny human.

Clear as mud, eh? lol