Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[SpottyHorse]

Sounds identical to me! Drs always blame it on the menopause!

Sent from my iPhone

[Alicat2104]

Thanks for the suggestion, I've seen them, but cost would be prohibitive... 🙂

[WavyDavey]

@Alicat2104, you can also try using a memory foam bed topper. It lessens the movements coming across the bed. It's not as nice as the sleep number beds, but it's very affordable in comparison. Unfortunately, it does nothing for snoring. 🙂

I've been experimenting with a way to increase deep sleep. It probably won't work for most, but with someone who has trouble staying asleep, it might do some magic with deep sleep.

I often have trouble with waking up around 2 or 3AM and then spending some time in bed trying to get back to sleep. Usually I just lay there, in light sleep, trying to at least finish the sleep cycle.

What came to me was the idea that deep sleep occurs near the beginning of sleep, and maybe there's a way to use that on nights with fitful sleep. So what I did was, when confronted with waking up, was just get out of bed for a while. What this did was make a second sleep period, and often another period of deep sleep. It was like my body treated the second sleep as distinctly different. Sometimes the fitbit would see it as separate sleep, and sometimes it sees it as a different sleep during the same night.

 Either way, with this method, I've been able to add 20 or 30 minutes onto the deep sleep cycle. And I've seen an improvement in performance in the gym. Give it a try, and let us know if it worked for you.

[Alicat2104]

It's a memory foam mattress Dave 

I think my issue is mainly the noise / disruption caused by my bed-buddy... though over the last few days I've avoided taking any sleep supplements and actually feel more rested.

[tjaramil]

I have been searching for ways to improve my sleep.  Its early in my self experiment (2 months) but I am finding that 6-9mg of Melatonin before bed time helps increase my overall deep sleep time. Thus far my deep sleep time has more than doubled from ~ 28.5 min to ~69.8 min on nights I take melatonin.  I noticed that on nights I take melatonin I enter deep sleep faster, in most cases immediately.  However there is a few caveats if I deviate from my normal start sleep time (typically 11:00pm) and stay up longer I dont see much of an increase in deep sleep with melatonin.  Also if I have to wake up in the middle of the night (ie. I have a 4yr old) its impossible to catch up on deep sleep even if I take more melatonin.  

[AllThatGlitters]

Hi tjaramil:

I've been taking melatonin for years and agree that it does work. I took 3mg for many years and only in recent years have I gone to the 5mg. I'm not too comfortable with taking more than that. I've never experienced nightmares while taking it, but I know that many people have. Since taking 6-9 mg, have you noticed any increase in REM or if your dreams are strange? 

Also, I think having a set bedtime is key! That's smart that you try to keep your bedtime. I do believe that it helps. I'm a natural night owl and love staying up late but I force myself to go to sleep at a decent hour. 

Since you sometimes have to get up at odd hours with your 4-year old, you might want to try something that I did while in grad school. During the 5 years I was in grad school, I probably averaged 3-4 hours of sleep a night, with the maximum being  5. Therefore, sleep was very precious to me and every minute counted. I was also working full time and most nights I was up into the wee hours of the morning working on research. Curiously, I never remembered my dreams during those 5 years. LOL But what I did was keep red lights on at night, or at least have them within reach if I had to get up for any reason and could just flip them on instead of a regular light. I had done some research (this is 15 years ago!) that using red lights at night will not disturb sleep patterns like blue light wavelengths can. I'm guessing it helped because I functioned supremely well during those years and still managed to hit the gym on a regular basis. Never had a Fitbit back then but it would have really been interesting to see how I was sleeping back then and how much of my regular 4 hours of sleep was spent in deep sleep. 

Here's to all of us getting a good night's sleep! 

[Tiffany127]

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working 🙂

[WavyDavey]

Great posts, everyone! I agree that having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair.

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA.

After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

[ForecasterJason]

I think this is good insight. I'm fairly young, and I average 60-80 minutes of deep sleep a night. Some nights are as low as 40 minutes, and the most I've had was 1 hr 52 minutes. At my age, I believe I should be averaging about 90 minutes of deep sleep a night. I have been trying to increase my physical activity level to see if it will make a difference.

[VikkiK]

I don't know if anyone will find this interesting.

My partner slept away at his mothers place last night.

I usually get about 6% to 10% deep sleep and usually feel sluggish and tired.  When I checked my sleep log this morning I found that I got considerably more deep sleep which was at 19% and I feel more energised.

Looks like my partner maybe disrupting my sleep.

[Rich_Laue]

I've moved your discusdion on sleep out of the Hardware problem board snd into the Sleep discussion board. It seems to be a better choice.

[ForecasterJason]

Since deep sleep is a major contributor to feeling refreshed upon awakening, so one way to look at whether you are getting enough is how you feel. Keep in mind that adults get less deep sleep as time goes on. Also, there are other factors that may be at play as well. It is recommended to get enough light exposure first thing, as this stops melatonin from being produced, which would otherwise act to keep you sleepy. 

[huskyrunner]

Interesting I've really struggled with deep sleep & I also find it isn't how many total hours sleep I get but the amount of deep sleep.

i have worked out on my non exercise days I sleep much better. Goes against all sleep advice 

the most deep sleep in 1 night was 1hr 13mins with the least about 20mins. The difference in how I felt was incredible 

annoyingly I have no stats for last 2 nights (looks like there's a problem) but the cooler nights & darker mornings may help too

[skf2121]

If you check under your sleep "graph" (where it shows your awake/rem/lite/deep cycles, there are three tabs:
Today/30 day avg/benchmark
Under benchmark, it shows what averages are for a person your age.  I used to stress about the time I spent in deep sleep cycles until I saw that I was above average for someone my age 🙂

[skf2121]

Pets in bed......I have a cat that I "saved" (found her at 1-week old) and she likes to sleep nestled against my legs.  I've noticed that I am incredibly "aware" of her while I sleep.  I'm convinced that my deep sleep has suffered since I got her.  But she ain't moving, so I'm trying to adjust 🙂

[huskyrunner]

I'm way under the % I should get for my age. 

I get over % for light sleep which doesn't surprise me as any noise disturbs me. 

I also sleep walk & can find myself downstairs when I wake up

[Spade1]

8 hrs sleep but 7 mins deep sleep?? WT? 5 nights in a row & best deep sleep has been 14 mins

always tired & have new fitbit

[Spade1]

I am having between 7 & 14 mins derp sleep a night out of 8 rs sleep

[Daisy70]

I'm averaging about 2% of my total sleep as deep sleep.  Most nights it's under 10 min total and I sleep on average 6-6.5 hours a night.  Even on nights where I sleep longer I still get very little deep sleep.  I fall asleep very quickly and I don't feel I wake easily, so I'm interested as to why I get so little deep sleep.  I might have to try harder to limit electronics closer to bedtime but gotta admit it's gonna be tough!!

[WavyDavey]

Hi everybody,

Sorry to hear of those that are getting really small amounts of deep sleep. I had a couple of nights of 10 minutes deep total.

One thing I think is very important to keep in mind is that the sleep stages that Fitbit rolled out is only a few months old, and they will likely be some tweaking of the algorithm for it in the coming months. What I'm saying is, it's possible for some people that the amount of deep sleep reported is less than what we're actually getting.

It can be easy to look at the chart and start to be concerned. But before you do that, check in with yourself and your body, and let it tell you how it feels. Are you feeling run down? Or are you feeling alright? Look at last month, last week, and last night. What's the trend?

I've had a number of times that the sleep reported very small amounts of deep sleep, and yet I had peak physical performance on the following days. Either the amount of deep sleep reported was underestimated, or it takes a few days for deep sleep deprivation to catch up?

For folks that wake up during the night, I have found one thing that works well for me. And that's to get out of bed for a while (1/2 at least) before going back to sleep. When I do this, the chart indicates a small amount of deep sleep at the beginning, and then after going back to sleep, another deep sleep period. It's almost as if the body treated it as two separate sleeps, each with their own deep sleep period? I can easily double or triple deep sleep by doing this.