Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[amirl]

Hi

I like your idea.I also think the same purpose can be achieved by religiously following the set goals.

I now go to sleep at the appointed time and almost always am able to sleep within a few minutes..Same about getting up.Our body is very versatile and learns to adjust fast.I have also experienced that I get deep sleep within minutes of falling a sleep and if that is not enough the balance comes in just a little before my wake up time.

[Ocadhla]

This is a really good thread and one that I will keep my eye on. The main reason for getting my Charge 2 was for the sleep analysis and it, sadly, seems to confirm what I suspected - that I am a very 'light' sleeper: I get less than half the benchmark for my age over my first three weeks. Interestingly, having got it for Christmas - when I wasn't at work - that was when I got most deep sleep. Back in the daily stresses of work and deep sleep amounts plummet... Being already fairly active (gym and cycling), I'm quite interested in the ZMA supplement so might have a go with that.

Ultimately I know what I'd like: to not have to work and to live somewhere totally silent at night! Then I think I'd sleep the sleep of the just... 😉 

[alis0nm]

Well this week I beat my all time low and got ZERO deep sleep!!  I'm wondering if you watch was just a bit loose or something though.  My average deep sleep is only 7% though which equates to about 30-40 minutes a night.  I have tried all sorts of things to improve it.  No alcohol, regular bedtime, no electronics, low lights, nighttime glasses and really nothing much helps, except no alcohol - which doesn't necessarily increase my deep sleep time, but makes my sleep cycles a look a lot better.  ie. rem and light sleep in roughly 1.5 hour cycles rather than all over the place.  I have found that if I do not have that evening glass of wine to unwind, I do feel more refreshed the next day so will keep abstaining.

Something a bit strange happened this weekend though.  I awoke at 3.45am and it took me a little time to get back to sleep so when I woke up in the morning and checked my charts I noticed that my fitbit did not even record my sleep time after 3.45am.  I noticed however, in my 4:15 hours of sleep my deep sleep was 1h10min (which is great for me).  I then adjusted my sleep record to the time I actually woke up which was 7:15am.  When i did this, my chart was adjusted to include that time, but the deep sleep part was recalculated to be only 40 minutes!!!  This makes me a little dubious as to how the calculations are done.  Has anyone else seen this happen to them?

Alison

[WavyDavey]

Hi @alis0nm,

I'm not exactly sure how Fitbit determines sleep, but I know it uses a combination of movement it can detect and heart rate. I have found by editing the sleep logs, it does cause a re-calculation.  

If it doesn't detect part of the sleep, I just ignore the sleep data for that day.  

I do get it telling me I'm asleep during quiet time before bed. So I have taken to charging the tracker at night and put it back on before sleep.

[tarakahn]

I've been curious about this too. How many minutes of deep sleep is ideal for say, a 7-hour sleep? I've been a tired person for a loong time 🙂 I feel like I dream all night long and it's exhausting. My fitbit tells me that I get a pretty normal amount of REM, but my light sleep is averaging 70% of my night (I definitely am a light sleeper) and I get about 12-40 minutes of deep sleep a night. I do think what others have said about getting more strenuous exercise during the day would help. I get in around 9-10k steps most days, but that's not strenuous. Wish fighting with the kids over homework counted! 

[Spunkychristine]

For 7.5 hours the average needed deep sleep is about 54-81 minutes. 

[Sandy2408]

Hi,
I’m surprised that you are doing 9-10k steps and still not being able to improve deep sleep. Have you tried taking taking vitamins or herbal sleeping tabs, just to get into routine.
Try not to drink any tea/coffee or stimulants
after 6pm.

Sent from my iPhone

[ForecasterJason]

While averaging around 7-7.5 hours of actual sleep time a few weeks ago, I was getting about 1 hour of deep sleep a night, give or take a few minutes. I was getting about 8k steps in each day. That being said, I don't know that it was really enough deep sleep. Some of those nights I apparently didn't get into a sustained deep sleep cycle until hours after falling asleep. 

[janieg6689]

Hey,

I have been suffering from fatigue for almost four years solid now, and there’s just no help from any doctor. (They think because there was nothing systemic on a basic blood test, that it’s not really a problem). I would go to bed at 8pm and spend an hour or so winding down, drinking chamomile and lavender tea, taking valerian, having the lights off, listening to relaxing music, and just chilling out; I could fall asleep instantly, anywhere, anytime because I’m always tired(!), so I’d go to bed and sleep without any issues. Despite sleeping through for hours, and waking up at 9/10am, I would feel like I’ve only had a nap, then I would need to go back to sleep by about midday, and find it really hard to concentrate. (I sleep a lot better during the day than I do at night- solid 2/3 hour naps, and nothing can wake me!) 

Recently I got my Fitbit Alta HR and have been tracking my sleep stages. I’ve been finding that I’m getting about:

55% light sleep

15% R.E.M. sleep

20% awake,

7% deep sleep

Like you, I have found myself feeling better after a 4 hour sleep than after a 10 hour sleep- due to the restless period/lack of deep sleep. I know this means something, but I’m not sure what, or how to fix it. I’ve been searching the internet far and wide about this topic and I’m so glad you made this post. I know that deep sleep is the key, but I really don’t know how to change my sleeping pattern. I listen to delta waves and sleep inducing music, and I also make sleep a priority and spend time and effort preparing my mind and body to sleep well; but I just can’t maintain a decent amount of sleep without waking up/being restless. 

Thank you for god article, I will keep searching 

[SalmonSam]

I don't drink tea or coffee past 4pm. I wake up at 7am and immediately go out to play tennis (which usually gets me to between 7.5k-10k (depending on the intensity of the 2 hour game) before my day even begins. I limit my electronic activity and stop using completely by 8pm so I can get to sleep by 10. All of this and I still get about 10-45 minutes of deep sleep a night instead of the 15% that I am supposed to get. I might try organic melatonin tablets but I am not sure yet.

[ForecasterJason]

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages). 

https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep

https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/ 

[Sandy2408]

Hi.

Do you mean to say that there was nothing wrong with your thyroid?

Have you tried skipping the nap and going for a long walk (might make you feel a bit exhausted) and then tried to sleep at regular bedtime 9 or 10pm?

Maybe your body clock need that adjustment?!!

[Sandy2408]

Hi.
The article very helpful. Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone

[SunsetRunner]

9-10k steps a day is not that much actually. I am currently at 6,851 steps (04:37pm) and I have only walked from my car to my office and had one lunch break at the mall. I will reach 10k until the day is over for sure with zero exercise.

[SunsetRunner]

 Hi Dave and Community,

I have the Fitbit charge2  for 2 days now, so no viable stats as of yet. My questions are

1 - Have you noticed if your "deep sleep" stage is fragmented into tiny bits or if it is one, big 1.5 hour chunk of sleep?

2 - Is there any correlation between a fragmented "deep sleep" and not feeling well rested on the following day?

[WavyDavey]

---

@SunsetRunner wrote:

 Hi Dave and Community,

I have the Fitbit charge2  for 2 days now, so no viable stats as of yet. My questions are

1 - Have you noticed if your "deep sleep" stage is fragmented into tiny bits or if it is one, big 1.5 hour chunk of sleep?

2 - Is there any correlation between a fragmented "deep sleep" and not feeling well rested on the following day?

---

Hi @SunsetRunner,

For #1, I would say both. On nights that it is fragmented, usually there are more awakenings that pull me out of deep sleep easier.

For #2, I can't say for sure, but I don't feel much difference, until the amount of deep sleep becomes less than an hour in total.

[SunsetRunner]

Ok well I am stumped. I came here looking for ways to increase deep sleep because I’m generally medium energy throughout the day. I’m 46 and used to be very high energy!   My FitBit reports I get on average 1 hour 40 minutes of deep sleep and now I’m gathering from forums this is a lot.  So what gives?  Where’s my energy???

[OklaCheryl]

I slept with a snorer for years and used ear plugs when I didn’t go to the spare room or recliner.   Ultimately, he did have a sleep study showing sleep apnea.   Folks who snore like a freight train should go to sleep lab earlier rather than later.   I was ultimately referred, too, and was told that I have significant restless legs interrupting sleep although I’m oblivious to same.  My spouse is now deceased, but wasn’t aware of my imvoluntRy movement, either.

Sleep is a sticky wicket. 2 d ago I got well over an hour of deep sleeping 14 min last night.    

[Ocadhla]

Restless leg syndrome is interesting... I wonder if I have that too. My Charge 2 will register 70 to 100 steps whilst I am in bed and supposedly asleep. There may by 20 or so if I go to the loo but not up to 100! And I know I don't sleep walk. It records a high number of instances of waking up (more than I am conscious of). I expect if I overlay the graphs, the steps recorded will match the times awake.

I even bought a new mattress last week to try and help with this poor sleep pattern... It hasn't helped! 

The last time I remember sleeping really well was on 02 Dec - I really wish I had had my fitbit then to see the record. I also wonder if I am now creating a vicious circle - the more I think about how little deep sleep I get, the less deep sleep I get! 

[Ocadhla]

Bingo! Yes, the graphs match exactly... the 110 steps that registered last night all match the 8 times it says I was awake for more than four minutes. I think that's really interesting.