Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[alis0nm]

When I upgraded from the original fitbit (worn on bra) to a fitbit watch (Alta then Charge 2) I noticed that it seriously miscalculated my steps in the wrist models.  Doing pretty much nothing all day would give me 8,000 steps.  I actually want the fitbit to MAKE me exercise so after researching in the forums here, I found the trick to edit my device settings.  I set that I wear it on my Left hand and that I am Left handed, when in fact I am right handed.  The resulting steps seem a lot more accurate to me.  For example, I have not done too much today apart from go to two stores and work on my laptop and my watch says I have done 2,285 steps.  It's 3.54pm btw.  I ALWAYS have to exercise in order to get those 10,000 steps.  So don't just stop at 10,000 steps a day if you have done nothing..get out there and move!  I find that if I get over 10,000 REAL steps, it does help my sleep. 

On that note, it's time for some exercise now 🙂  And don't be jelous of my free time..I got laid off two weeks ago so am just enjoying some free time for a change...

Alison

[ForecasterJason]

@SunsetRunner there are a number of other conditions that can cause low energy. Low iron, low thyroid, low vitamin B12, and low vitamin D are just some of the health issues that have been shown to result in a lack of energy.

[Karl-T]

Not an average, but you can get a baseline range for people your age in the fitbit app by tapping on Benchmark in your sleep details

[GershonSurge]

---

@SunsetRunner wrote:

Ok well I am stumped. I came here looking for ways to increase deep sleep because I’m generally medium energy throughout the day. I’m 46 and used to be very high energy!   My FitBit reports I get on average 1 hour 40 minutes of deep sleep and now I’m gathering from forums this is a lot.  So what gives?  Where’s my energy???

---

I'm only replying because of your name. Most people who eat the Standard American Diet have the beginnings of heart disease by the time they are ten years old. It's not only heart disease, it's virtually every degenerative disease. There is a way to prevent this. That's a whole food plant based diet with no animal products including dairy and eggs and no added oils such as olive oil. Fat should not exceed 10%. This is the only way of eating that has been proven to prevent, arrest, and reverse heart disease. It also cures many forms of cancer. It cures many of the degenerative diseases. 

It's hard to say where to start learning about this as nobody does a great job of starting at the beginning. I'm going to suggest a playlist of 12 videos on YouTube. Make a note of any doctors mentioned and branch out to playlists or books by them.

It's pointless to focus on REM because if you are really not getting enough, there is a cause that you won't address by focusing on REM. (I am not convinced the graph are correct. I'm also not saying they are wrong.)

Get the food right, and the cause will likely disappear. 

Let me know if you want more information. I don't want to start a food war here. 

[SunsetRunner]

I’ve learned that days when I exercise vigorously and spend time outdoors I sleep like a rock.  Never fails.   

[SunsetRunner]

Thank you I suspect you’re right and I’ve toyed with this diet. Soooo hard. I’ll check out the YouTube videos you shared because I am open to whatever it takes to not be a heart disease statistic. I want to see grandchildren and flying cars. Lol. Yes please share what you know!

Sent from my iPhone

[GaDawgs]

Try a ZMA product from GNC or the Vitamin Shoppe. I recommend ZMA Jym. I had same problem but this combo Vitamin helps me increase deep sleep time by an extra 15 to 30 minutes. 

[GershonSurge]

First of all, I'm not convinced the sleep level tracking is accurate. I also show low REM.

I began starting a workout when I went to sleep, and if I woke up during the night, I stopped the workout and started another one. Just doing this increased the amount of deep sleep. I suppose it could work in reverse if a person became anxious about it. It took about a month to have this effect.

Before picking up any prescription, check out the drug at www.pdr.net. You may decide the "side effects" aren't worth it. They are NOT side effects. They are effects. You will likely experience some of them. There may also be reasons you shouldn't take the drug like you are taking aspirin or something. If you have any questions, ask the prescriber. They may balk, but that's part of what they get paid for when they agree to treat you. Never allow someone who didn't tell you to take the medicine sign the prescription. 

Make sure you understand all the side effects so you can schedule an appointment if you have any of them. 

[cyp7]

Do you mean PM?

[SunsetRunner]

Wow. That’s terrible. I’d cut out all caffeine after noon and see if that helps.  And then transform bedroom into dark quiet hole 😁

[KingGeek]

Completely agree with you - my overall total sleep matters far less than hitting 1.5 hrs deep sleep. That’s all that makes the difference for me whether I will have energy or not.

I had thought that high intensity work outs might help - but not seeing any long term proof.

Having religiously followed a 10pm bedtime (wind down from 9:30pm then read or mediate with a view to being asleep by 10:30pm), I am starting to think that the “8 hours - regular sleep time” rule is not for me. Just as you suggested I think I’m someone who gets my deep sleep when I follow my internal body clock, don’t stress over the time etc. 

Have you had any further discoveries or developments - I’m excited that it’s not necessarily me being “defective”, but possibly a different type of sleeper... 🙂

[KingGeek]

I’m wondering (and I am very similar to you) if we are the % of the population who need less fixed sleep time. Eg I will feel far better on 6 hours with a good portion of deep vs 9 hours with only 40mins in deep sleep. 

I wonder if it relates to the hunter-gatherer genes. In the summer if the sun is up, so am I and equally in the winter I feel like I’m permanently at half-power?

Share any discoveries, all I can say is whilst I know exercise is essential, it’s only a small part of what is needed to get the type of sleep I need.  

And I don’t drink any caffeine (which I only do occasionally at work in the morning) after 12 noon, I don’t get blue light for at least an hour before bedtime and my bedroom is cool and dark. 🙂

[KingGeek]

So do I, but I still don’t get guaranteed deep sleep that even comes close to the minimum the majority get. I just get lots of R.E.M. and light and wake up exhausted. I have done a 4 mile jog in the morning, lunch time walk (1-2miles), evening sprint 30 mins and 30 mins aerobics at the gym, got home, walked the dog for another 4 miles and STILL get 30-40 mins deep in an 8 hour night.

I don’t do processed food, eat fruit to get my sugar, make sure to get around 20% of my diet as pure protein, only drink water, no alchohol, lots of veg, vitamins, omega 3, regular bedtime, no electronics past 8pm... if I’m missing anything let me know!

[GershonSurge]

@KingGeek,

I'm a 64 year old male. I get about the same aerobic exercise you do with the addition of 80 minutes of light resistance training a day. I've only needed about 6 hours of sleep since college. Full disclosure: I have neuroendocrine cancer, which was discovered in December, but based on the symptoms, I've probably had it since 2013. I've been on a whole food plant based diet, which has been proven to control cancer.

Every problem with the body has its origin in what we eat. I'm never the least bit tired.

First, I eat no animal products. Animal protein has been proven to increase the initiation, growth and spread of cancer at a level above 12% of calories. Dairy products are especially effective. 

I don't eat added oils. Aside from the fact that they have no nutritional value and turn right to fat if above about 8% of calories, when mixed animal protein, they accelerate the growth of cancer.

I suggest getting rid of the vitamins. A normal selection of vegetables has all we need. Vitamin pills do not contain the vitamin itself. They contain a derivative of the vitamin so they can be patented. Most of them have the potential for severely harmful effects. 

Recently, I've added a cup of chopped cruciferous vegetables of different colors to each meal. I also have a cup about 40 minutes before jogging and immediately after. This has completely eliminated any soreness after jogging. It's like a runner's high, and I'm ready to go right out. After I added this, I started getting deep sleep.

Moderation in my advice does NOT work. Having too much animal protein is a step function for cancer meaning too much turns it on and too little turns it off. The amount of fat in the diet has a linear function with the chance of getting cancer.

The easiest support is in the documentary Forks over Knives. The deep scientific support is in the China Study.

This way of eating can prevent, arrest or get rid of cancer. Same goes for heart problems and the other 13 major causes of death. This has all been known and supported by peer reviewed research since the 70's and before, 

[Sandy2408]

Hi,

i think you could be thinking a lot. Sometimes unhelpful or negative thinking/ thoughts might make you feel drained!! 

I also think it might have to do with fight or flight. If you are under stress, your body thinks that you might run away from something or fight, therefore it is using energy, whereas in fact you might be stuck at office rushing to complete something. 

I hope i am making sense🙂

[KingGeek]

Stress is likely a big factor - I agree. I should have mentioned I have no insomnia or similar. Each night it takes 10 to 20 minutes to get to sleep without any special effort and then I sleep through with the normal amount of waking (as far as I can tell via comparison) but I just can’t get close to average deep. 

[KingGeek]

All advice welcome, but for me the jury is out on meat - especially as I have the ability to buy high quality, high welfare, no steroids added stuff. 

[ForecasterJason]

As far as meat goes, I don't think it has to be an all or nothing thing. I would say there's a big difference between eating it as part of a diet that includes a variety of plant based foods (especially generous amounts of vegetables) and simply eating it with a lot of other foods linked to inflammation. And I also think the quality of the meat matters as well. Furthermore, it's possible that not everyone gets the same level of inflammation from meat. 

Meat is a great source of zinc and B12, and these nutrients are linked to better sleep.

[ForecasterJason]

Here's something else that may be a factor for many of us: our breathing rate. I started looking in this a while back, and found some interesting articles. According to this article, our sleep need and sleep quality is linked to our breathing rate, and apparently it is possible to get by with less sleep if our breathing rate is slow. Butekyo breathing is supposedly the main key in doing so, and from what I can tell it seems like at least 1 hour each day would be needed. 

I found out about all this months ago, but admittedly haven't had the determination to practice it for more than 5-10 minutes a day, so I can't personally vouch for whether it works for me or not. However, a couple days ago I did start doing it for one hour each day, and will try to keep it up. 

I also don't know how much progress I'll make without overhauling my diet (since I think my gut health may be affecting my deep sleep), but I'll see what happens. I have counted my breathing rate at rest to be around 19-23 breaths per minute, which is a long way to go to what's considered ideal.

[KingGeek]

This is fantastic - thank you for sharing! 👍