REM Vs Deep Sleep

[SnapperUK]

Love the new sleep stages.

Over the last month or so, it seems to me that I am achieve a lot of deep sleep 23% compared to bench mark of 12-18% but on average significantly less REM about 15% which is the bottom of the benchmark 15-25%. Some nights this falls to about 11%.

My time awake is below average.

So much question is "Does it matter?"

Is REM better than deep sleep? or vice versa? Or do they do different things?

Thanks

[SunsetRunner]

They all do different things. 

From the fitbit article 

WHAT DOES EACH SLEEP STAGE MEAN?

Fitbit’s sleep researchers and the National Sleep Foundation describe the following sleep stages. The names of the stages are what we’ve chosen to use in your Fitbit sleep log. 

LIGHT SLEEP

Light sleep serves as the entry point into sleep each night as your body unwinds and slows down. This stage typically begins within minutes of falling asleep. During the early part of light sleep, you may drift between being awake and asleep. You may be somewhat alert and can be easily awoken. Breathing and heart rate typically decrease slightly during this stage.  

Light sleep promotes mental and physical recovery.

DEEP SLEEP

Deep sleep typically occurs in the first few hours of sleep. When you wake up feeling refreshed in the morning, you’re likely to have experienced solid periods of deep sleep during the previous night. During deep sleep, it becomes harder to be awakened since your body becomes less responsive to outside stimuli. Breathing becomes slower and muscles relax while heart rate usually becomes more regular. Adults may see a normal decrease in deep sleep as we get older, though sleep patterns vary among people. 

Deep sleep promotes physical recovery and aspects of memory and learning. This stage has also been shown to support your immune system. 

REM SLEEP

The first phase of REM sleep typically occurs after you’ve had an initial stage of deep sleep. You generally stay in REM sleep for a longer period of time during sleep cycles occurring in the second half of the night. During this final stage of sleep, your brain becomes more active. Dreams mainly occur during REM sleep, and your eyes move quickly in different directions. Heart rate increases and breathing becomes more irregular. In principle, muscles below the neck are inactive to avoid acting out dreams.

REM sleep has been shown to play an important role in mood regulation, learning, and memory as your brain processes and consolidates information from the previous day so that it can be stored in your long-term memory.

[SnapperUK]

Thank you for the reply.

Good information. But does not quite answer whether it actually matters that I am getting less REM than perhaps I should be.

I can see that having less deep and REM sleep might be a problem, but I am definitely getting plenty of deep, so does it really matter that I am losing REM for deep sleep.

I have just switched the sensitivity of the sleep tracker on my Charge 2 and will note whether or not my percentages change as a result. Perhaps I am sleeping too deeply for normal sensitivity.

Thanks again.

[NellyG]

@SnapperUK I dont know the answer to your question either, but I think we are all different. The 'recommended' amounts needed are just averages. As long as you are feeling that you slept well I dont think it matters. I seem to get less deep sleep than the recommendation but I feel absolutely fine unless I have a very poor nights sleep in general (ie only about 6 or less hours) so I am not particularly concerned about it.

[AlisonFaye]

REM Sleep isn't very restorative, so as far as your energy levels, having less REM sleep is probably a good thing. In fact, people who have narcolepsy suffer from an excess of REM sleep and as a result they never feel refreshed-- even after sleeping for many hours. Besides stimulants, patients with narcolepsy are often prescribed SSRIs because they suppress REM sleep.

[WavyDavey]

A very simple way to look at it is-- deep sleep is restorative to the body, while REM is more integration for the mind.

With some practice, one can gauge internally between the two. Not enough deep sleep feels sluggish in the body. Physical performance can suffer. Not enough REM may show up as unclear thinking or memory trouble.

At some point, the two are difficult to distinguish. With enough deprivation of deep sleep, the mind will have trouble, and with too little REM, the body may not feel that great either. So there's lots of overlap. But if you can get a sense of how each type of sleep affects your body and mind, it can be really valuable information.

[ForecasterJason]

Getting sufficient REM sleep has connections  with the circadian rhythm. Are you sleeping in a very dark room and getting enough light exposure early in the day?

[Rubenkn]

I am late to this thread, but I know that REM sleep is important for memory consolidation and that there is actually a positive correlation between REM sleep and IQ, nonetheless, a balanced sleep will always be best I suppose, personally I have very high % of REM sleep but rather little deep sleep, it could be a fun study to compare a lot of people like us to see the expression of low REM / high deep and high REM/low deep in everyday life 🙂 

[crabbylady]

Even later to this thread...I just got the Charge 2 a few months ago, and my readings on deep sleep are below average--averaging 7%.  REM seems to be within range.  Am concerned about it because although deep sleep is supposed to go down as we age, I'm being compared to folks my age (so the range is 8 to 16%).  I do have memory issues, and I think it may be related to my lack of deep sleep.  I think it would be helpful if Fitbit included another statistic to show total amount of sleep compared to my average, and then to the population I'm being compared to, in addition to the stages.  I know everyone needs a different amount of sleep, but if my average is 6 hours and I'm worried about it, I'd rest easier (no pun intended!) if I knew the population was only getting 5:45 on average.  

[RzASA]

How go you switch the sensitivity tracker in your Charge 2?

[Jimmy77]

I am the same way. I get very little deep sleep. Most nights average 30-45min which is much below the benchmark.

However my rem sleep is really high. Sometimes higher than the benchmark. I feel ok waking up but worried about the lack of deep sleep.

[Sono]

From everything ive read and heard about recent studies. 6 hours of sleep is not enough for anybody

[Sono]

From everything ive read and heard about recent studies. 6 hours of sleep is not enough for anybody. In fact its quite scary missing even 30 minutes of recommended sleep.

[Rubenkn]

What study said that it's 'scary' to miss 30 mins of recommended sleep?

[Sono]

check out this podcast with neuroscientist Dr. Matthew Walker. (It's a Joe Rogan podcast, he does a good job in the interview so his personality isn't that much involved.)

http://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-sleep/

Its well worth the 2 hours i spent listening to it, confirmed and brought new topics about many of the sleep talk topics ive picked up over the years.

[Sono]

Also Id recommend http://ultimatehealthpodcast.com/sarah-ballantyne/

with Dr. Sarah Ballantyne. This was a good one too!

[JennMorton]

I would agree with this because I get excessive REM sleep and my mind is going nonstop during the day and hit deep sleep only 4x per night and I’m very sluggish during the day. 

[Michelle2012]

Interesting... I notice I am getting a lot of light sleep but less than average of both deep sleep and REM sleep. I wonder if that’s why I feel like I can’t recall anything.

[Kwizikle]

I am in my 50's. I get loads of light sleep - well above average but very little REM sleep - down to 12-15% most nights. My deep sleep seems to be normal.

I find it hard to sleep more than 5-6 hours per night. However, I find if I allow myself to sleep in on weekends my REM goes up. I prefer to sleep in the day than in the night and feel much better if I go to bed late and wake up late.

Also I rarely start a REM cycle until I have been asleep at least 3-4 hours...

[Mick_Mooney]

Numerous studies have shown that REM may help to prevent Dementia and Alzheimer's. If REM periods are short your could be at higher risk of developing either of the two conditions.

REM disorder has also been linked with the onset of Alzheimer's. 

For example:

• In 6 hours sleep I get average 30% "2 hours" of REM sleep 
• In 9 hours of sleep I get average 30% "3 hours" of REM sleep

I've had my FitBit Charge 3 for 5 weeks now and it's showing consistently that 30% of the sleep I get is REM regardless of the total amount of time slept.  

Article from 2014: https://www.alzheimers.net/rem-sleep-disorder-and-alzheimers/

Article from 2017: https://www.livescience.com/60216-decreased-rem-sleep-dementia-risk.html

Article from 2017: https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/lack-rem-sleep-linked-increased-risk-dementia/