Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[vanderlife]

i have heard about 'alpha alarm clock'/ autosuggestion. will i wake up easier than wich just normal alarm?

[tlhclaw]

Great post, I too am finding my deep sleep % less than 10% many nights per my Versa.  I'll try some of your tips and share any tips I find helpful going forward..  I definitely have found "better" deep sleep nights regardless of amount of overall sleep relates to more energy level the following day.

[oldbritboy]

Hi All

I am 60 years old and have mild obstructive sleep aponea, mine is not caused by being overweight as I am only 9 stone and work out three times a week. i have a charge 3 and my sleep is terrible, I have reduced the aponea events but anything at all to help I will try. I find it comforting to read all these bio hacks and tips,i have being doing all this for years to get some decent sleep. Not tried to sleepy tea though could anyone tell me the mixture per cup???. 

Cheers 

[Mothra53]

Interesting about the breathing. I’ve noticed mine is really slow when I’m relaxed...about 3 to 4 breaths per minute, and really long exhales. (I have to almost remind myself to inhale.) My husband is the opposite, lots of fast, shallow breaths are his norm. And he suffers from anxiety. I’m largely anxiety-free. I wonder if controlled slow breathing can change a person’s anxiety profile...

[Mothra53]

Let’s talk about alcohol and sleep. My experience runs counter to conventional wisdom. I’m a 65 year old woman. My sleep tends to be excellent for my age: 7-8 hours, minimal time awake, lots of deep (16%) and REM (20%) sleep....when I drink, wine, that is. On the nights I abstain, I have far less deep and REM sleep, and tons of light sleep. And I wake up feeling less well rested.

I’m moderately active, have minimal stress, and have excellent sleep habits. I’m genetically muscular. My body responds quickly and well to exercise and weight training. I’ve read that lean bodies handle alcohol better than fatter bodies. 

I believe that our genetic make-up has a major role in how we sleep. My brother (67) and I are both lean, drink regularly, and are deep, long sleepers. The health profiles of our 23 & me reports predict our musculature and sleep patterns.

So, moderate drinking may actually improve sleep length, depth, and quality for a segment of the population. Just make sure to stay hydrated. Ideally one glass of water for each drink! :musical_notes:

[Letmein]

It's been a while since I've posted and feel that although I haven't totally resolved the issue, I am certainly getting very good insight in my deep sleep issue. It really comes down to the ability of shutting down, which is so hard to do when life is such that shutting down is the last thing you feel you should do for self-preservation! Speaking with other poor quality sleepers, one common attribute seems to be an attitude to being control freaks! I certainly am, not with others but myself!

So the question is how can we shut down and get to that place where sleep is not just a mean to an end, something that we have to do to get some rest to get on with our long 'to do' task the next day, but bring it back to being something pleasurable that has its prioritise place in our busy lives?

On this basis, it is not surprising Mothra that alcohol is doing it for you. It does exactly that, sends you into that 'whatever happen, I don't really care' state of mind that allows the brain to shut down. I was prescribed once some diazepam for anxiety and although was supposed to take it through the day for 2 weeks, I only took them at night, and unsurprisingly, I had the highest periods of deep sleep during these 2 weeks I have ever had. I can only imagine that smoking joints or harder core drugs have that same effect, and that is probably one of the reason these are so psychologically addictive.

You are lucky Mothra that you are getting the benefit of good deep sleep through moderate drinking and more importantly that it has shown to be sustainable as the problem is that commonly, we need more and more of our 'sleeping drug' to get the same effect. That's assuming you only need one medium glass of wine a night to get that effect as anything else would be considered from a health perspective an unhealthy amount and we know for a fact the correlation between too much alcohol and many illnesses, including cancer.

The key is really to find the way to unwind healthily the way these 'drugs' do and that's really hard to do. So far, besides all the recommended good sleep habits we can find everywhere, what seems to work best for me is totally changing my mindset to a 'I don't care' attitude. I don't care if my boss thinks I'm rubbish and decides to end my contract. I don't care if my husband thinks I'm a lousy wife and decides he doesn't love me anymore and I don't care if my kids think I'm a bore and decide not to talk to me'. It's all extreme anyway, but it's made me realised that my life is rules by this deep, unconscious yet constant fear of losing what I have, even though there are no reasons whatsoever that this might happen besides what is indeed beyond my control. 

A couple of weeks ago, thanks to the wonders of the perimenopause that sends my hormones into havoc, I sank in that hormonal depressive state when I really didn't need to make much efforts to feel that I didn't care much about anything....and I had the best deep sleep for a week I'd had for years! 

At the moment, I am focusing on rekindling my love for going to sleep and seeing my bed as a heaven place of comfort and security rather than a place of torture that leaves me broken the next day. I continue with my 15 minutes daily meditation sessions and trying to incorporate the wisdom through each day. 

That week that I had over 15% sleep for 4 days in a row reminded me what life is like with proper sleep quality. A life of physical and mental energy which means that every day tasks are actually enjoyable rather than a chore. It certainly was an incentive to sort it out for good. It will take time but I now feel confident that I'll get there. 

I do think there is a need to raise awareness of the impact of poor sleep quality as opposed to quantity. There is so much available for people suffering from insomnia when people complain of struggling to fall asleep or waking up in the night and not able to get back to sleep, but there is almost nothing for those who seem to get enough sleep in total but of which most falls under light sleep. Of course, without a monitor, most people probably don't know that's their issue and instead focus on the symptoms of it, assuming that they suffer from a health issue, hormonal imbalance or vitamin deficiency. I wouldn't be surprised if it was discovered one day that many people who are diagnosed suffering from ME or Fybromylagia are actually just suffering from poor sleep quality.

[rockpool]

Letmein, if it was possible I would vote for your post many times. The best post I have ever read about sleep. Thank you!!!

[alis0nm]

I agree!! Great post @Letmein !  

I agree that stress is a HUGE factor for me and getting good sleep....and I've also found that a little alcohol helps me sleep.  My wind down routine at night now is to have 2oz of wine watered down with 6oz of water. I sip that little cup of wine flavored water and immediately relax and forget about my stressful job, stressful kids, stressful life....  I do of course splurge on my alcohol a bit more at weekends, but nowadays more than about 1 glass does in fact affect my sleep.  

I also think that the use of bright lights and electronics affects me a lot in the long run, but also there are just nights when my sleep is bad for no apparent reason.  Just this week I did the same things 2 days running - one night I got ZERO (yes, ZERO) deep sleep and the next night 45 minutes.  I did not feel stressed on the 0 sleep night at all.  I did feel tired the day after though.  Nowadays I turn down all my lights after sundown, wear blue blocker glasses at night, avoid electronics and my average deep sleep is about 40 minutes.  My average a year ago was about 10 or 20 minutes, so in the long run things have improved.  By the way, I am female and 53 and not through menopause yet (late bloomer).  My best nights sleep this week was when camping on Saturday night.  52 minutes.  I'm sure it was a lot to do with no artificial light....  Who knew I'd feel so good the day after sleeping the night in a tent!

Oh and I bought my ASD daughter a weighted blanket.  I 'borrowed' it from her one night and had the best nights sleep ever!  I can't remember the stats, but know I woke up feeling very rested.  It was hard to get out of bed though as the blanket was just too cozy and comforting 😉

[Letmein]

Ha, thank you rockpool and alis0nm.

Alis0nm, I too have noticed that my worse night are not always when I have been most stressed on the day, but I do think it is because it's not the stress itself that so much determined how much deep sleep we will get but how we react to it, so sometimes the reaction is instant and sometimes delay. I have noticed that I sometimes have my worse nights not when I was most unsettled that particular evening but when I have been upset/angry/frustrated in the morning. It's as if it than lays dormant to resurface at night!

The other thing I've noticed which I wonder whether it affects others: Due to low pulse rate and blood pressure, I've been advised to drink more especially before going to sleep. Of course this means needing the toilet at night and therefore disturbing my sleep, so I contemplated stopping it until I realised a few times that I had the longest deep sleep session after going back to bed usually around 3 or 4am. Usual trend is for deep sleep to be more prevalent early in our sleep cycle, but in my case, a getting up and going back seems to be the best time. I am guessing because by then, I am even further away from the mental pressure of the previous day!

Another factor to take into consideration with deep sleep is not just how much we get in total but also in how many instances. Even when I manage to get 1 hour or more deep sleep in an 8 hour sleep cycle, it is often through 4 or more stages. I believe that it is better to get one stage only of 40 mns sleep than 5 or even more of shorter stages.

I too have heard great things about the weighted blanket which made me curious enough to want to try it. My instinct tells me that it won't be for me as I actually don't like a heavy duvet (the heavier the better for my husband), and sleep better with warm but as light as possible but maybe these are different. It's pity they are so expensive and not easy available to try. Sounds like you've found a very good solution alis0nm.

[Moneylogue]

I started taking hemp/cannabis oil a little over two weeks ago and my sleep has been awesome. It was suggested by a friend and finally took the bite after three months of him telling me all the benefits that's he's been experiencing with it. I usually get an average of 51/2 hours of sleep/night with an average of 14% deep sleep since I started tracking my sleep with Fitbit over a year ago. I still do get an average of 51/2 hours of nightly sleep, but the difference is I can easily fall asleep now and my deep sleep has been at 18-21% in the past two weeks. I am also more relax and more energetic during the day. Just my 2 cents!

[dancefoxtrot]

Hi all,

I am turning 78 years old this week and I'm concerned about getting adequate or even optimal deep sleep. I don't know if we can access the weekly or monthly average of deep sleep but I checked on a few days on the dash board. On those days I have been averaging about 7 1/4 to 1/2 hrs of sleep nightly with lots of short bits of deep sleep.  Over all I see that I am only getting 41 to 48 minutes of deep sleep a night. I think that I need more to keep a healthy brain and body without harming my memory functions. I think that I should have 1 1/2 hours of Delta sleep a night from reading on line. 

I love all the good ideas about stable bedtimes and ending blue light especially from cell phone and computers. I'll check to see if I can blue light filtering glasses that are affordable. 

Perhaps I will try Melatonin again on nights that I struggle to fall asleep.

Since Menopause I definite wake up to use the toilet but I don't turn on the bathroom light. At 4 AM there is enough light to vaguely see and I add a sleep mask then. But I have 5-8 minute cycles of deep sleep as well as a bit longer when first I fall asleep.  The calm app sounds great as I have it and just need to use it before sleep. 

I am a natural night owl so self imposing a strict 11 or 12 o'clock bedtime is my challenge.

Thanks so much for all the good info. and ideas. I watched a few TED talks on the subject. 

May we all sleep well and deeply.

Barbara G

[sandiafit]

I have discovered that I was taking a vitamin pack which contained chromium.. I also was drinking a zip fiz which also does contain chromium.. With the 2 combined, it puts my deep sleep a night at about 20 mins. When I don't take the chromium in the dose pac and just do the zip fiz... early in the day, then I have the normal amount of deep sleep for my age.. which is about 1 hr 15 to 20 mins a night. Just thought I could share. As above, yes vitamins do pay a large part in our sleeping or NOT. 

[sandiafit]

I have discovered that I was taking a vitamin pack which contained chromium.. I also was drinking a zip fiz which also does contain chromium.. With the 2 combined, it puts my deep sleep a night at about 20 mins. When I don't take the chromium in the dose pack and just do the zip fiz... early in the day, then I have the normal amount of deep sleep for my age.. which is about 1 hr 15 to 20 mins a night. Just thought I could share. As above, yes vitamins do pay a large part in our sleeping or NOT. 

[WavyDavey]

Just an update... I've been able to double the amount of deep sleep by making a few changes. I believe the biggest contributor was installing blackout curtains.It keeps the bedroom very dark, and also very cool. It seems the combination of cool and dark is helpful to staying asleep. Also, getting to be earlier seems to yield more deep sleep for me. Happy sleep everyone!

[ParallaxView]

Do you live in a humid area?  My husband snores really bad.  He did a sleep study, but they didn't find apnea.  The doctor told my husband to get a steroid nose spray.  A humidifier also helps in dry areas.

[c8m]

I am in my 30's and getting results well below the normal range for my age. I'm using a Fitbit Ionic. About 5-6 days a week I get less than 35 minutes of deep sleep (less than 8%) and less than 6 hours of sleep (averaging about 5 hours a night). About once a week I will get a healthy night where I spend 90 minutes in deep sleep. I have no trouble falling asleep, I fall asleep in less than 5 minutes. I don't set an alarm in the morning because I try to get as much sleep as possible, but I wake up hours earlier than I want to wake up. I check my pulse rate during the night and I don't see any sudden spikes that might suggest sleep apnea, but I have used sleep recorders that indicate that I do snore. Sleeping on my stomach seems to produce slightly better results than sleeping on my back.

I've tried following most of the usual suggestions. I have my phone and PC set to turn off blue light by 10 PM. I exercise during the day and I walk outside in the sun for up to an hour each day. I don't drink alcohol and I am physically fit. I've purchased a new mattress, 2 new pillows and I got earplugs. I've tried taking magnesium glycinate and magnesium threonate. I tried eating/drinking Montmorency cherries for natural melatonin. Nothing is working. When I try to lift weights on days I have had minimal deep sleep it is so difficult. I feel like a zombie going through the day. The days where I get 90 minutes of deep sleep (once a week) I feel like Superman. I feel so much healthier and energetic. I've never gotten more than 90-minutes of deep sleep so I don't even know what that could feel like, but I can feel the difference between a night of 50-minutes of deep sleep and 90-minutes. Days where I get less than 30 minutes of deep sleep I feel like I might as well just cross the day out and forget trying to accomplish anything.

I've begun looking into taking some kind of sleep supplement from GABA to melatonin to Wushin. I think that my sleep disorder more than any aspect of my life has had a negative impact on my well-being. Of all the things that Fitbit is doing for me, I think tracking my sleep in detail is more important than any other aspect. Unfortunately, I don't feel like there are effective solutions once a problem is detected. Fitbit just pops up tips like don't drink alcohol or minimize screen time before bed. I'm in my 30's and I'm sleeping like a person who is twice my age. There are serious long-term health ramifications for consistently poor sleep quality and so this is naturally worrying me. 

[WavyDavey]

Nice post @c8m, This is what I like to see--not just be concerned about the numbers, but comparing to how you actually feel in the morning and day. It sounds like for you, there's a real deep sleep issue going on.

One thing that's helped me is blackout curtains. At night, no light gets in, and I can't even tell at first if my eyes are open or closed because it's total darkness either way. This means if I wake up too early in the morning, it's not hard to get back to sleep.

Unfortunately, I think each person has to assess their situation and experiment to find what works.

[alis0nm]

Yes, great post @c8m .  I also agree @WavyDavey in that everyone is different and we should really go by how we feel after a certain amount and type of sleep rather than what we are told we should get.  A couple of years ago during the time before my mother died and when I had other stressful things going on in my life I was getting an average of 10-20 minutes deep sleep a night. Sometimes I got 0 minutes (according to my fitbit)!  But I was also getting 5-6 hours sleep a night as I was waking up at 5am and would lie awake worrying about not sleeping.  Nowadays I can get 38 minutes one night and 1hr 10m the next night.  I am 53 so this is ok for me.  For me, I have noticed, I am affected more by the amount of sleep I get rather than the type.  Anything less than 6 hours a night and I'm a mess.  Over seven is the best, even if I get only 10 minutes deep sleep, I still feel ok if I get over 7 hours sleep.  So now I don't even stress about the deep sleep and go for quantity.  I still do all the things to enhance my sleep.  I wear blue light blocking glasses as soon as the sun goes down at night.  . I try to make my bedroom dark - having a skylight which I can't cover makes it hard, so I wear an eyemask,but it often falls off in the night.  I do meditation or relaxation exercises to switch off after a stressful day.  But for me the thing that works best is going to bed earlier.  If I have to get up at 6.15am, I am in bed at least 8 hours before that.  The optimal time for me to go to sleep is 10pm (which barely happens, btw). If I wait until 11pm, my deep sleep is virtually non-existant, so timing is key for me.  I just wish I could sleep later than 6.30/7am at weekends 🙂 . Oh and I also take CBD/hemp oil (which in general seems to help with not stressing so much about how much sleep i'm getting).

[Aismoc]

Keen to here YOUR sleep routine. That is a lot of deep sleep

[KristaShanda]

I get about the same anywhere from 30 minutes up to 75 minutes is my norm these days and I can feel how drained I am when I dont get enough.