Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[spirilis]

I have seen a short stint of deep sleep after 5 hours but most of mine is in the first 4.

On the note of getting more, lavender oil near my CPAP intake seemed to help a bit, keeping my deep sleep above 50 minutes, but the last 3 days eating Low Carb have moved my deep sleep % from 9-12 to around 17% for 2 days in a row.  Seems to be the strongest effect I've seen yet.

There is some evidence that high carb biases toward less deep and more REM and low carb biases the opposite.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5015038/

[aux]

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@kentskyo wrote:

I was curious if any else is logging deep sleep later in their sleep period? I seem to get about half of mine after 5-6 hours. Factors that may contribute include lack of a fixed time to go to bed, I usually meditate for 30 minutes and do some yoga (relaxed stretches) just before bed. Average deep sleep is around an hour and 15 minutes, split between the first half of the sleep period and the last half...

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Yes, I often do too. It varies wildly for me, but often my deep sleep is spread out over the entire sleep period. Sometimes all of it is in the first half and occasionally all in the second half.

I haven't discovered a reason (or cause) for this yet. I did notice that when I've exercised, the deep sleep is in the first half of the night more often, but it's not consistent. My psychologist thought it was odd but said the important thing is to get around an hour of deep sleep, and couldn't explain why my sleep pattern is like that either. Maybe it's just an individual thing.

[Aismoc]

Thank you for info on carbs. Upping magnesium to 600g also. Using cherry
extract now at night. Told up B6 also. Regular bedtime and earlier seems to
be v important. My husband gets 4 hrs deep sleep.
Goes to bed at a consistent earlier that 11.
Trains hard also.

[ParallaxView]

Supposedly Magnesium L-Threonate is great, but I I didn't notice any sleep benefit with it. I do notice better sleep, and deep sleep with Magnesium Glycinate. Zinc as well, but not too high of a dose. That changes but but bacteria and increases C-difficile risk. I started taking a bioactive B vitamin with B6 to better utilize magnesium after reading this article. https://blogs.mercola.com/sites/vitalvotes/archive/2019/05/15/the-vital-magnesium-vitamin-b6-connect...

Zinc definitely helps as well. This might be why https://youtu.be/DbEpChDbEsk
In addition there's young to bed around 9:30 or 10pm, blackout curtains and ear plugs.

I have found no benefits from CBD oil, unless someone considers excessive bruising a benefit. THC is legal in my state, and does help with sleep in general.

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[Letmein]

I haven't posted here for a while. I've gained further knowledge and now feels more at peace with my poor sleep.

The trigger for poor deep sleep is very simple, it's down to stimulation, mainly mental, but also noise. I now know for a fact that the menopause has triggered it although I suspect I was never a great deep sleeper.

I've found a routine that is not ideal but allies me to get by, work full time, and remain quite active. I cut down all stimulation after 8pm, an hour before bed. No talking, just chilling out or reading a book. I take 9mg melatonin that does help me get to sleep.

Then when I've had 3 or 4 days of bad deep sleep, I take 20mg of amytriptiline. It really does help, mainly allowing me not to wake up feeling fully alert by 2am, and the knowledge that I won't and the fact that I can still get into deep sleep later in the night too means that I can get over 1h deep sleep. Managed 1h17mns last night. Anything over 1 your and I feel ok.

I'd love to get 2 hours every night, I would feel on top of the world, but it won't happen, so I try to get at least a couple of nights over 1 hour a week.

Magnesium does nothing for me and maybe even the opposite. Bough the gel that is supposed to be quickly absorbed and both nights I rub some before going to bed I slept poorly.

[alis0nm]

When people talk about striving for 2 hours deep sleep I have to laugh (or cry).  This was mine last week!  0 minutes!  Ok. So I was camping and had a sore back from mountain biking, but still. All that fresh air should have made me sleep well, right?  No.  I am very happy if I get 40 minutes deep sleep, which is currently my average.  A year ago I was averaging 10-20 minutes, so I am happy with the 40.  Occasionally I get 1 hr and I'm ecstatic!    I do all the usual things.... consistant bedtimes, no electronics, blue light blocking glasses.  I have started using melatonin which helps a bit, but after my stint last week of bad sleeping, then waking up early I took Nyquil and slept like a baby!  I also have prescribed sleeping pills (zolpidem/ambiem) but they don't do much for me. Nyquil works much better.  I only use it when my sleeping gets really offtrack for a night or two.  Stress is a huge factor for me. I have a really active mind and although I can usually get to sleep quite easily these days, it's waking up at 5am and being wide awake worrying about work/kids/not sleeping which is the hardest thing.  If I get 7 hours sleep I feel good, but I always allow for at least 8.  I'll have to try the supplements mentioned here to see if anything will help.  I constantly feel drained and tired and look it!

[ljmarxen]

I understand the frustration. Based on the latest research, there isn’t a single supplement or medication that has been clinically proven to increase sleep quality. This is based on the research and you can read this in Matthew Walker PHD, “Why We Sleep.”

I have had lots of challenges with deep sleep and I can say honestly the only thing that has worked for me is playing a hypnosis tape for 30 minutes whilst laying in bed. It shuts my brain off and also has produced benefits in terms of amount of my deep sleep. There are some free channels on YouTube you can use. Worth a try. It sounds like you’ve identified stress being the issue so if that is the reality than I hypothesize hypnosis will benefit you. 

Cheers,

lance

[Aismoc]

Magnesium thronite is better.. Magnesium citrate 600g not working.. also
gives l9se bowel. B6 very recommended. Sleep patrern of same time very
important.
ALSO trying conc montmorency cherry juice.

[Letmein]

AlisOnm, I too go through days and even weeks getting only 10mns deep sleep. This was when I was most stressed. I ended up very ill.

I now still get such nights, but not as often. I'm still only on 50mns average which sadly is not enough for me and I struggle to get on with the mental demands of my job.

Last night was not a good one, woke up 8 times (longer than 5 minutes). This inevitably impacts on deep sleep. I knew last night I'd struggle as my brain wouldn't slow down. I knew when I got up it wouldn't be a good picture. It's amazing how aware you become!

I did wonder about hypnosis. It seems to do work well for stopping to smoke and losing weight but haven't looked for any evidence with sleep.

[ParallaxView]

If you have problems with stress, cortisol might be high. Taking DHEA can lower it https://mikemahler.com/articles-videos/hormone-optimization/why-dhea-is-the-ultimate-stress-manageme...

One problem is low cortisol can also cause sleep loss. According to my doctor, the best indication you have low cortisol, is if you get light headed when you stand up. Meaning when you have low cortisol your body doesn't regulate your bloodless well. It drops when you stand up.

Also make sure your hormone are not low in general. Average is not optimal. Dale Bredesen lists optimal ranges in "The End of Alzheimer's." I'm thinking of joining his program to find a new doctor https://www.ahnphealth.com/

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[Aismoc]

Thank you.
That rallies with a conversation I had with a nutritionist. Cortisol and
hormones and stress. All affected and affecting sleep.
Cheers.

[DebWaites]

The Calm app sleep stories are great for putting me to sleep!

[alis0nm]

I managed 1h 22 minutes deep sleep last night!  I only slept for a total of 6hr 29min and was awake for 53 minutes (23x awake according to fitbit).  I still feel drained.  For some reason if I get less that 7 hours sleep I don't feel good, even if I've had a lot of deep sleep.  Last night I took an Ambian which could be the reason for the grogginess also...  

I also use meditation apps when I have problems falling asleep. They work really well.  I also like the Relax fitbit app and nightly do some focused breathing with it to get me to relax.

btw, I think 1h22mins of deep sleep is a record for me!  

[spirilis]

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@alis0nm wrote:

I managed 1h 22 minutes deep sleep last night!  I only slept for a total of 6hr 29min and was awake for 53 minutes (23x awake according to fitbit).  I still feel drained.  For some reason if I get less that 7 hours sleep I don't feel good, even if I've had a lot of deep sleep.  Last night I took an Ambian which could be the reason for the grogginess also...  

I also use meditation apps when I have problems falling asleep. They work really well.  I also like the Relax fitbit app and nightly do some focused breathing with it to get me to relax.

btw, I think 1h22mins of deep sleep is a record for me!  

---

Fwiw I still need caffeine or else I'm groggy after 1+ hour deep sleep, but my strategy is to have coffee right when I wake up, as early as possible, and no more; the half-life of caffeine is such there is still a small bit of caffeine in my blood by the time I go to sleep.  Might be good to skip caffeine for a day once in a while.

The biggest difference with 1+ hour deep sleep vs. <45 minutes is that during a time period when I'm not otherwise stressed or amp'ed up doing something, I don't feel like I'm going to doze off at my desk or whatever.  There's a subtle feeling like I must always be vigilant as I'm always at the cusp of wanting to doze off when I haven't had enough deep sleep.  Get 1+ hour and I'm good, get 1hr15min or more and it's like there's a constant "buzz" of ambition in my head even when relaxing in my chair.

So far, the biggest prime mover for deep sleep for me has been eating dinner early enough + no snacking + NO CARBS in the evening, several hours between eating anything and bed, and playing a pink noise + waterfall sound app through a bluetooth headband I wear all night long.

Wrecking deep sleep included sleeping in a stuffy humid tent without enough support (ugh, how's 36 minutes deep sleep sound?) even though I had a fan blowing on me, eating bulk carbs for dinner or snacking on something sugary before bed, snacking on anything spicy that might upset my stomach (or anything that upsets my stomach)... etc

Basically anything that amps up my metabolism, including digestion, or arouses me will delay or eliminate deep sleep and the bulk of it seems to be circadian-programmed to happen right after I doze off, so if that window of opportunity is wrecked by factors like what I wrote above, total deep sleep goes into the dumps.

[Sarah564]

I completely agree!

[alis0nm]

Here's my deep sleep for the last week:

Sunday:1h5m

Monday:6m (!)

Tuesday: 37m

Wednesday: 15m

Thursday: 36m

Friday: 6m (!)

Yep - work/stress related.  I'm doing all other things right.  

Thing is I don't feel much worse on so little deep sleep. On Wednesday night I only got 6hrs total sleep and although 36 of it was deep sleep, I felt way worse that day than on Friday with 7h15 total sleep and 6m deep.  

[Letmein]

I've been meaning to come and post on this thread for some time. A lot has happened to me since my last message and I feel I have learned more about deep sleep and it's impact, as least as I'm concerned.

Most importantly, I've learned that I was putting much blame on my lack of deep sleep for my struggling in life. Three things have happened: I've changed jobs, and with the kids getting older, I have had a lot less natural stress in my life. I have also finally got through the menopause and am coping so much better in that respect, but the last was the most interesting part: My sleeping like a baby husband used my old fitbit when I replaced mine, and to my total shock, his deep sleep record is much worse than mine!

This came as a real surprise as he is a good sleeper who has a very busy life, both at work and outside, doing competitive sport and being at a top level for his age. I was convinced that he must have been getting at least 1 1/2 hours a night deep sleep, but he hardly ever managed more than 1/2 hour. Interestingly, it is not his physical performance that he struggles with but more with his memory.

As the stress in my life reduced, I started to stop being as focused on my sleep. One thing has come as a great help too. I decided to try taking amytriptyline. I was worried taking it as ultimately, it is an anti-depressant and one that is known to come with weight gain, and I didn't help with that having to already battle the weight gain attributed with the menopause, but in desperation I decided to give it a try, and OMG, I never slept so well that night. The key aspect of it is that it makes me sleep all through the night rather than just knocking me out for a few hours before waking up wide awake in the middle of the night.

As things stands now, 6 months on: I only take it once or twice a week because it did indeed made my appetite go into total obsession, leading to weight gain, and because the more regularly I take it, the less it worked, and I didn't want to resort to increasing doses. Ironically, it is not helping me for the nights I take it, but helping me overall, because know I will be able to get one or two good night sleep a week mean I am much more relaxed about the nights I don't take it and indeed, I am managing more and more good nights without it.

I have also realised that although the accumulation of nights with poor deep sleep will indefinitely impact on my ability to concentrate, with good REM and 8h sleep, I am managing better than I thought now that I enjoy my job and don't commute any longer.

I have also established the direct link between lifestyle and deep sleep, and that's stimulation. I almost always know in advance what night I'll have. My routine is now to stop engaging in any stimulating activity after 7pm, including conversations. I read a book from 7:30 to 9pm and then go to bed. If I find myself engrossed in the book, I'll get good deep sleep. If I am in a mental state of being distracted, my brain being fired up with thoughts, or just feeling a bit hyper, I know I'll struggle. Sadly, a lot of that feeling of 'hyperness' is directly linked with the menopause, so although I have adjusted all I can to reduce it, I also accept that I can't totally control it.

That's that for me. My 30 days deep sleep average is still only 11%, so below the lower benchmark for my age and not great, yet I feel so much better than I did one year ago, that I do believe now that deep sleep is only one aspect of what makes us feel good during the day. 

Alis0nm, your weekly average is indeed quite rubbish, but is very similar to my OH is yet seems to function just fine. As you say, it's not just about deep sleep and yes, stress is evil for good sleep. It's so hard to change one's lifestyle to reduce it, but what a difference it makes when you suddenly remove a large chunk of it from your life. I fully sympathise with your situation.

[Mothra53]

This is an excellent, insightful analysis. Thank you for sharing.

When I started this topic string, I was fascinated by the sleep-tracking
aspects of my Fitbit. Then I realized that I was becoming a bit
obsessed...and it was affecting my mood. First thing I did every morning
was check my stats. If I didn’t sleep long or deeply according to my
Fitbit, then my mood would darken slightly and I wouldn’t feel well-rested.
I was letting the device tell me how I should feel every morning. So I
stopped wearing it to bed.

But I still make it a priority to do everything I can to get a good night’s
sleep!

[Aismoc]

Yes I agree with the previous in depth analysis.
I also feel the fitbit is n9t accurate on sleep. Wearing an e pensive
Garmin I. get 2 t9 3 hrs sleep. My husband a serious runner get 4 to 5!!
It seems a little obsessive.
Stress and sleep regularly and timeline are hugely important. Going to bed
before 11 and up at 7 pattern helps.
Stress huge factor

[amanda010]

According to New Health Advisor, grown-ups 18 and more established need somewhere in the range of 1.5-1.8 long periods of deep sleep every night, which is about 20% of your general rest. Some people, however, may discover they need more so as to feel completely refreshed. There's nothing of the sort as an excess of deep sleep.