Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[Linrab]

Unfortunately, melatonin has an adverse effect on me. It keeps me more
restless.

[Bobcat931]

I tried Lexapro briefly and then quit due to the side effects. In researching the drug, I found that difficulty sleeping was also a possible side effect.  Have you tried an alternative SSRI?  An alternative to meds?  We are all different and may respond in different ways to the same med, vitamin or supplement.  

Another thing, I have quit wearing my FitBit at night.  Thinking it might have been causing anxiety on some level. How am I going to sleep tonight??  What's my sleep score going to be???  My scores indicated I was flunking sleep. (That's a joke, but they weren't good.)  

A multitude of factors involved in sleep quality.  A lot of good suggestions on the forum.  Final thought, I have read that it is the man [or woman] who thinks "I have got to get a good night's sleep tonight" who is going to lie awake all night. Forgetabout the stats, find out what helps you and sleep well.

Peace.

[Linrab]

Thanks I have the same thought about the anxiety it could cause. 🙂

[wandaruth]

Wow, I learned so much.

[Bobcat931]

We are all different, but here is what has worked really well for me:  installed sound dampening/room darkening curtains in the bedroom; using an air purifier and I turn the fan up a couple of levels by morning to create a higher level of white noise to mask dogs barking and cars revving; at bedtime I take 5 mg Melatonin and 6-8 drops of CBD oil under the tongue. It goes without saying that vigorous exercise during the day helps a lot.  Better if it is outdoors.  Again, may not help anyone else but all of this works for me.  

[JennyTheUnfit]

Re your trouble with waking in the middle of the night, you might just be doing what comes naturally. Apparently until modern times it was normal to sleep in two shifts with a period of wakefulness between. So getting up and doing a few things makes sense in that context. Interesting!

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieval-habit-of-biphasic-sleep

[Ray94903]

@JennyTheUnfit  Fascinating article. "Biphasic sleep was not unique to England, either – it was widely practised throughout the preindustrial world. In France, the initial sleep was the "premier somme"; in Italy, it was "primo sonno"." Now when I get up in the middle of the night, I think that I'll try having a little read before heading into my "second" sleep!  Thank you so much for posting.

[Mothra53]

Yes! It’s made me far less stressed if I can’t immediately fall back
asleep. Like you, I now read until drowsiness returns…

[friluftsline]

I've struggled with insomnia since I was a newborn (yea that's right!).

When I was an infant, I would only sleep while simultaneously being breastfed, or at least lie skin to skin on my mum's chest. As an adult, I have severe problems getting enough deep sleep, often as little as 5 minutes per night. After trying "everything" there is of safe and/or natural options (I live in Scandinavia, so the doctors here are much more reluctant to prescribing the heavy stuff, thank God), having an impeccable sleep hygiene, meditate, wearing blue blocking glasses, throwing out the tv (!) etc etc etc, I've now gone "back to my roots", meaning back to the sleep inducing secure feeling my mum used to give me as an infant. The one thing that helps me the most, is putting on a sleep mask, and then my boyfriend will read for me until i fall asleep. I'm not an anxious person at all, but I still think it's a question of calming my nervous system and feeling safe.

I don't necessarily get more deep sleep, but it happens with fewer interruptions during the night. before I slept max 4 min of deep sleep per "block", and now, if I'm lucky, it may be as much as 20 minutes in one take.

[Linrab]

thanks so much for your comments. I have to quit being on my screens
before bed. I never take medication. I will give the sleep mask a try.

[GeorgyGirl66]

I am disabled and have chronic pain. I do not do the painkillers route, though. I don't want to become addicted to  pain pills. So, I deal with it with analgesics instead of opioids. Since I have had my FitBit, which has only been a couple of weeks, I noticed that I spend what little time I do sleep in "light sleep". I have had a couple of days where my REM sleep was less than an hour. No wonder I have such low energy. I did find, though, that on days that I am having what I call "big pain", I take a hot shower before bed and take a couple of Ibuprofen or Tylenol, etc. It's made a difference. Something relaxing might help. Thoughts?

[Ray94903]

@GeorgyGirl66  - I'm not a doctor and this is not medical advice, but Melatonin works for me. It comes in 2mg, 3mg, and 5mg dosages, in gummy or tablet form. Great for jet lag too!

[GeorgyGirl66]

You know, my daughter has some Melatonin gummies. I may try it. I do have kratom for pain and CBD to relax.

[Bobcat931]

I use 5mg melatonin and 6-8 drops of CBD oil under the tongue. Also try streaming a couple of episodes of a comedy at night!

______________________________
Roger Busler
“Be well, do good work and keep in touch.”

[Mothra53]

Laughter is a great relaxer!

[Drumbob]

Hey @GeorgyGirl66 , I too am disabled and have chronic pain. I have spinal stenosis and previous back surgery. I don't do pain pills either. I don't get a lot of deep sleep. I have started taking, like Ray94903, 3mg. of melatonin as well as a cbd gummy about 1 hr. before bed. Since doing that I'm getting a bit more deep sleep. I find that the days I get 10,000 steps I get better sleep. Walking is my main source of exercise, it really has helped me. Take care.

[GeorgyGirl66]

Thank you for that! I got four hours of sleep last night. I am sitting here like a zombie - again. I am definitely going to try. I, too, have spinal stenosis in my lumbar, thoracic and cervical back. I did have osteonecrosis of the femur, but I had bilateral hip replacements last year. I took some kratom before bed last night, and it did relax me, but it really just made me hungry. I drank some water instead of eating, because I knew it was just kratom- munchies, not actual hunger. It's just under 8am here, so I can actually go back to sleep if I wanted to. The thing is, I just don't want to. Too much to do and see. Ah well, I'll give the Melatonin / CBD a try. Swimming is on the agenda today, if the weather cooperates. Have a wonderful day, friend!

[Robert-H]

Hello All.  Another option to try is adjusting your diet.  I saw an article recently about diet and how it can improve sleep. The idea is some foods contain melatonin.  It is the hormone that promotes sleep.  It is also produced in the body from the amino acid tryptophan.  Ever heard the idea turkey makes you sleepy?  It is high in tryptophan.  Here is the link:

www.bbc.com/news/health-60291027?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Also, some foods work against a good night's sleep.  

I have been tinkering with it along with other items and so far seem to have positive results.  I have been averaging 8-15 minutes more deep sleep a night for the last two months.  But I also have a new sleep schedule with a new job.  So your milage may vary.

Cheers,

Robert

[Bobcat931]

Disclaimer: Melatonin/CBD works for me…you might go schizo! 😉

______________________________
Roger Busler
“Be well, do good work and keep in touch.”

[Vladyslav]

Hi Dave, I am on the same page as you about how important deep sleep is. Sometimes when it's really late and my body needs some extra time to heal itself from all of those hours spent awake at night - like last week for instance-I'll get 30 minutes or more! My energy levels go up during these long cycles where we're getting our best quality rest...but then bam: an hour plus two later things are back down again fast because there just isn't enough nourishment coming through yet--even though plenty has been laying around waiting patiently outside your door this whole while now (i'm talking full throttle!). Keep going strong; keep looking out.

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