Generation UCAN Superstarch for Keto performance?

[Daves_Not_Here]

I'm interested to know if anyone has had experience with UCAN Superstarch.  The claim is that it is a high molecular weight carbohydrate that is digested in the lower intestine.  Glycogen is released slowly without elevating insulin, and the athlete can remain in ketosis, burning both fat and carbohydrate for energy.  Because glycogen is available, gluconeogenesis is not required, and the total amount of energy available to the athlete is increased.  Kind of a have your cake and eat it too scenario. 

Has anyone here tried it, and what has your experience been?

[Dominique]

Lots of claims ("patented science", "all natural", non GMO", "gluten free", "clinically proven", "revolutionary carb" etc.) on their site. I had a look at one of their drink mixes, here are the ingredients:

It would appear it’s a proprietary mix of common/cheap ingredients. What they call SuperStarch® looks like an isomalto-oligosaccharide you can find as such at other supplement vendors: for instance, MyProtein sells it as VitaFiber™. Look at the description: "highly soluble dietary fibre powder, derived from non-genetically modified corn starch". I use it to make my own take on Quest bars (for a fraction of the price). You could probably "reverse-engineer" the UCAN drink mix (if you see merits in it)  by playing with the macros of the main ingredients in Excel until you get a similar breakdown. 

OTOH, if being in ketosis lets you ride for hours on end without bonking, why would you need that fancy workout drink?

[Alicat2104]

I know Danny Vega thinks very highly of it -

https://theketogenicathlete.com

[Daves_Not_Here]

@Alicat2104 - thanks for the link!  That site looks to have a wealth of information, and hours of listening for me.

@Dominique -- good question - if you can fuel your exercise on your virtually unlimited fat stores, why add glycogen via carbs?  Several reasons:

• Fat-burning has a longer warm-up period -- prior to Keto, it took me only 5 minutes to get to 100% strength and speed.  On Keto, it takes at least 20 minutes.  On Strava, I can see my average speed continue to increase over time.  I only seem to achieve new PR's for segments that occur after Hour 2.   With glycogen, I hope to get warmed up more quickly. 
• Fat-burning has lower performance -- prior to Keto, my average cycling speed was 17-18 mph (up until the bonk, then 5 mph).  On Keto, it's 15-16 mph (but all day long, no bonk).  The effect is more pronounced with weight lifting and skiing.  With some glycogen, I hope to have the best of both worlds and get more intensity.

As to the primary ingredient of SuperStarch, I believe it is essentially corn starch (razzing you - yes, "cheap", I like "cheap", water is "cheap" but still OK) that has been exposed to low heat for many hours (40?) to produce a high molecular weight with low osmolality.  It is cannot be absorbed in the small intestine like normal sugars and passes into the large intestine, where it is digested slowly over time, allowing blood sugar (and therefore insulin) to remain suppressed as seen in this graph .   With low insulin, fat can continue to be liberated and burned.  Two fuel sources, cake and eat it too.  Or so the claims state, I'll believe it when I experience it. 

I just bought some of the stuff - I'm skiing for 3 days starting tomorrow and will give y'all the full report when I get back.

[GershonSurge]

@Daves_Not_Here,

There isn't any digestion in the large intestine. All it does is take out the water.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@GershonSurge - all the large intestine does is "take out water"?  Are you saying that nutrients, ions and chloride that arrive in the large intestine are not digested or otherwise made available, but are entirely excreted in solid waste?

As to claim made by UCAN that its sugars are "dripped" out slowly over hours, if true, where would the carbohydrate source reside if not in the large intestine?  

[GershonSurge]

---

@Daves_Not_Here wrote:

@GershonSurge - all the large intestine does is "take out water"?  Are you saying that nutrients, ions and chloride that arrive in the large intestine are not digested or otherwise made available, but are entirely excreted in solid waste?

As to claim made by UCAN that its sugars are "dripped" out slowly over hours, if true, where would the carbohydrate source reside if not in the large intestine?  

---

@Daves_Not_Here,

I should have added some vitamins are produced in the large intestine. They may be absorbed. Apparently, some salt is, too. 

Glucose is stored in the liver and cells. One place that is overlooked in this statement is food still digesting. Carb digestion starts in the mouth and continues through the small intestine. 

Keep in mind, UCAN is a supplement and regulated as food. None of their claims have to be true. It doesn't even have to be proven safe. 

Now, for a positive suggestion. Unless you like paying about $2.00 for 90 calories of carbs of questionable value, try a handful of Good Old Raisins and Peanuts (GORP).

Random Comment: People have reached elite athletic status with all kinds of diets. After a long run, I used to think fish, French fries and beer were the best way to get carbs and liquids back in my system. 🙂 

[Daves_Not_Here]

@GershonSurge - thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I have a unique set of requirements that I'm trying to satisfy -- I enjoy the effects of ketosis but want to fill in the athletic performance gaps -- I'd like to increase my intensity and get warmed up and to full strength more quickly -- but while remaining in ketosis.  I'm curious if Superstarch will allow me to do this.

I'll know soon -- I'm on the slopes tomorrow and will burn 3,000+ calories.  I'll have a light breakfast with very little carbs except for Superstarch, and skip lunch.  I'm interested to find out if I can sustain a high level of energy throughout the day and get to dinner without being starved.   Will report my results here.

[Alicat2104 · Accepted solution]

The fibre processed in the large intestine is actually essential for maintaining a healthy microbiome too.  

This is fresh in my head as I was reading about it yesterday.

[GershonSurge]

@Alicat2104, @Daves_Not_Here,

I was just listening to a video by Dr. Fuhrman. He said that beans are high in resistant carbs. I suspect most vegetables have it in varying degrees. The intestinal flora digest it and convert the carbs to fat. about 10% of this is available to the body. 

Keep in mind, animal products produce a different kind of intestinal flora that is unhealthy in many ways. 

As Dr. Campbell pointed out, anytime we describe a mechanism, we are wrong. The mechanisms are far more complicated than people know. We do know the results of eating various types of diet.

[Daves_Not_Here]

OK -- here's my first day results after a full day of skiing -- markedly higher strength throughout the day.  It felt like I had lost about 10 pounds from 3 weeks ago (but my weight has not changed), which I am taking as higher leg strength.  At the end of the day, I had no aching in my quads, was still able to weight and edge strongly, and went until lifts closed at 4:00.

In the morning I added one scoop of Superstarch to my Keto coffee recipe.  The rest of my breakfast was a hard-boiled egg, bacon, avocado, and greens sauteed in ghee butter and ycoconut oil, so I had high fat, moderate protein, and low carbs.  The only extra calories I had through the day were two Baileys coffees.

I'll report my Day 2 results -- I'm interested to see if my strength is more or less compared with today.

[Daves_Not_Here]

Day 2 update - yesterday I was Superman, today I was Lois Lane.

Actually, I felt pretty strong with the Superstarch through about 2:00 PM.  Then the wheels started coming off.  On the other hand, the snow today was stickier than yesterday, so I had more energy to expend.

[GershonSurge]

@Daves_Not_Here,

Great analogy!

While you were off skiing, I was learning more information from Dr. Joel Fuhrman and about the value of beans. Apparently, there is a mechanism where resistant carbs reach the large intestine. The microbiome can convert about 10% of these to fats. Not all of these are used by the rest of the body. They can simply cause a stool to have more fat in it.

There is another thing these resistant carbs do. They slow the conversion of complex carbs to glucose before it is released to the bloodstream. One of the best sources of resistant carbs is  beans. When I go backpacking, I always bring dehydrated beans with me in the form of dehydrated refried beans. I make a bean soup out of it and have it with whole wheat crackers or spread on a whole wheat tortilla.

Of course, you wouldn't have the crackers or tortillas, but maybe you could try the same experiment while adding beans instead of UCAN to your breakfast. I'd use the same 100 calories, which would be 100 grams of beans.

Maybe at the end of the day, you could turn into Wonder Woman.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@GershonSurge - thanks for this.  The approach you describe is really attractive to me - if I can nourish my gut with resistant starch, then it seems I may be able to get the "slow drip" sugar effect I'm looking for.  And it seems that achieving the effect with whole foods is preferable to supplements.

Also, it's possible I may be conflating the effect of the Superstarch with the greens and vegetables I've been having for breakfast over the past 3 days.  Normally when I go out on a long morning bike ride (4 hours), I do it on an empty stomach after my sleeping fast, and enjoy that I'm fueling with body fat.  But, my performance is diminished.  However, on these last 3 days, I've been having greens and avocado for breakfast, so my performance improvements could be as much due to those as to the Superstarch.

I have a long ride scheduled for next Sunday -- I'll experiment with skipping the Superstarch in lieu of a breakfast with beans and report results here.

[GershonSurge]

@Daves_Not_Here,

In an old book ("Anatomy of a Breakfast") Dr. Kellogg said that if we ate a normal supper, we should have enough left in our small intestine for about an hour of work. I've tested this by eight mile slow runs many times, both with and without eating before.  I found I could run about an hour and fifty minutes when I didn't eat before running at the same speed as I could if I ate breakfast. He ate mostly nuts, vegetables and a small amount of dairy.

The chart below shows the absorption rate of fast foods vs. beans and nuts. It comes from page 19 of Dr. Fuhrman's book "Fast Food Genocide." He considers fast food to include all junk foods eaten by people. 

I'd dispense with the avocado, which is high fat. I think both of us have enough reserve to make it through a four hour ride. Perhaps, replace it with highest carb greens you are willing to eat.

There is something to be careful of -- hypoglycemia or low sugar levels in the blood. This can strike almost without warning and cause a blackout. One way to note the onset is to turn off the average speed function on your bicycle computer and frequently compute the average speed in your head. You will likely find you are unable to do so as easily when the glucose levels in your blood are dropping. This is the time to stop and eat. True bonking is a serious issue.

You may find what you are looking for in the two books by Dr. Phil Maffetone that are on Amazon. They are a little expensive, but worth it if it saves you a bunch of experimenting.

[Daves_Not_Here]

Day 3 update -- yesterday I was Lois Lane, today I was Superman again (or Wonder Woman if you prefer).  Same breakfast as yesterday, including Keto coffee with Superstarch.  Skied almost non-stop from 8:30 until 1:30 with same power as Day 1 -- got 23,000+ vertical feet, and didn't eat lunch until 3:30 (which I could have skipped).

Why the improvement from yesterday?  I can only guess it was more sleep, and the snow conditions were better so I didn't have to work as hard.

@GershonSurge - great stuff in your most recent post, and very much aligned with the direction I'm trying to go.  Thanks for introducing me to Maffetone - I was unfamiliar with his work, but at first glance, it seems he is addressing the issues I'm most interested in.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@GershonSurge , @Alicat2104 , @Dominique -- as promised, here is an update on keto performance using Superstarch versus low-glycemic index/load "slow" carbs to provide a source of glycogen to supplement ketones for energy.  My objective is to fill in keto performance gaps; specifically, the longer warm-up and lower explosiveness of keto versus traditional carb-loaded performance.   Last week, I experimented supplementing with UCAN Superstarch for a 3 day ski-trip -- Days 1 and 3 had noticeably higher strength and endurance, Day 2 was slightly higher.

@GershonSurge suggested substituting whole-food plant-based carbs to see if I might get the same effect.  Also, I also ate vegetables and greens during my ski trip, so it's possible they may have been contributing to my performance.  If I can get greater performance without supplementing Superstarch, I'd prefer it and I promised to experiment with whole-food carbs on my next Sunday bike ride.  Here are the results of my highly scientific N=1 trial today:

• Ate breakfast one hour prior to start of ride
• Breakfast included about 10 oz total of spinach, kale, chard, broccoli, asparagus, onion, green pepper, and asparagus EDIT: and lentils (this is about twice my normal breakfast greens and veggie consumption)
• Breakfast excluded keto coffee and Superstarch
• Very well rested - 8 hours of sleep
• Fully recovered from prior ski weekend
• 6 days of light cardio (15 min) immediately following today

Results:  A wash.  I felt normal, neither weak nor strong.  My warm-up seemed to take about 20 minutes.  Per Strava, my speed in the flats was 15-16 mph.  My hill-climbs were 10% off my Personal Bests.  It was only after 2.5 hours did my speed in the flats pick up to 17-18 mph.  No bonk or fatigue at the end of the ride.  This is my normal keto experience.  Next Sunday: same ride, with Superstarch. 

[GershonSurge]

@Daves_Not_Here,

Great writeup!

You might try substituting black beans, peas and an ounce of nuts in place of meat and see what happens. I'd start the supper before and for breakfast. That may improve your vascular dilation -- translation: possible lower heart rate at the same speeds. If you keep it low, you may have more at the end.