Hard Surface Running vs Trail Running

[bcalvanese]

I have been working my way into jogging by doing jog/power walk intervals.

I do this mainly on roads (hard surface) for a couple of reasons.

1. there are no places near by that have long enough trails.
2. I have a weak ankle and don't want to chance on getting an injury which will stop me from being able to walk.

I know that road running is a lot more impact than trail running and I could injure myself that way, but I also know that the right running shoes and the proper running style can eliminate this risk.

1. I have been developing a running style (very slow jog) which is a heel touch/mid foot strike... thanks @shipo
2. I have invested in several pairs of "good" running shoes that are made for road running.

I think that these are probably the two most important things to prevent injuries from road running, and so far it's been working out good for me.

My top 2 shoes that are great for both road running and power walking are...

1. Hoka One One Clayton
2. Brooks Transcend 3

I just picked up the Hoka One One Clayton yesterday on impulse. I went right from the shoe store to Tyler park and did my 7+ mile jog/walk in them. I was able to jog for much longer each interval with them, and with no foot/ankle/knee/hip/back pain at all. It wasn't until I got home and googled these shoes that I found out they are "award winning" shoes. They moved into first place after only a single workout...:)

Feel free to post about your running...

Road or trail?

Running style?

Shoes?

thanks,

[GershonSurge]

I find slow running on a hard surface easier on my body than walking. 

The only thing I'd add to your excellent post is don't run into actual pain. Tiredness is fine.  It's better to take a day off when slight pain develops than take a month off when it develops too far.

You may not actually have a weak ankle. It may be more that the muscles aren't trained. You can gradually train these small muscles by standing on one foot whenever you get the chance. It doesn't take  much. Maybe 10 minutes total during the day while doing other things.

[bcalvanese]

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@GershonSurge wrote:

I find slow running on a hard surface easier on my body than walking. 

The only thing I'd add to your excellent post is don't run into actual pain. Tiredness is fine.  It's better to take a day off when slight pain develops than take a month off when it develops too far.

You may not actually have a weak ankle. It may be more that the muscles aren't trained. You can gradually train these small muscles by standing on one foot whenever you get the chance. It doesn't take  much. Maybe 10 minutes total during the day while doing other things.

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Thanks for the reply.

When I was in my 20's I twisted my anke very badly. To this day, if i turn it to the side and put any weight on it, it will pop right out again. But your suggestion may help. I will give it a try.

[shipo]

Some general comments/observations vis-à-vis running on hard surfaces versus trails (in no particular order):

• Running on smooth paved surfaces requires less attention to one's foot-falls as the threat of a mis-step/stumble is greatly reduced.
• Running on smooth paved surface is harder on the structure of one's body, especially the joints.
• Running on smooth paved surface can be even harder on one's body due to every stride being roughly the same as the hundreds of prior strides. 
• Even the hardest packed dirt trails absorb/attenuate significantly more shock than the softest paved surface (i.e. tarmacadam baking in the sun).
• Trail running, even the smoothest of rail-trails, requires more attention to one's foot-falls to prevent a trip, stumble, or twisted ankle.
• Following a long layoff from running, it can be argued trail running is actually safer than road running; the trade-off in potential falls and ankle turns is offset by the shock absorption of the dirt.

Personal experience:

• In early January of 2003 I had a bad trip and fall (not while running, I was picking my kids up from daycare) where I broke my right Tibia and Fibula and partially tore my right foot off (lots and lots of soft tissue damage); the surgeon who screwed me back together told me I'd walk with a limp for the rest of my life and I'd never run again.  After my surgery I went six months non-weight bearing and another three months in a walking boot; even with therapy during my three booted months, when the boot finally came off I could barely walk a few steps.
• Determined to prove my surgeon wrong, I tried to start running again in late 2003; epic fail.
• Determined to prove my surgeon wrong, I tried to start running again in the spring of 2004; I managed to log about 20 miles over a 6-week period before the asymmetry of my stride had me all but crippled.
• Determined to prove my surgeon wrong, I tried to start running again in the fall of 2004; both knees started swelling huge after only a few short runs.
• Determined to prove my surgeon wrong, I tried to start running again in the summer of 2005; I was working in an office near an abandoned military golf course and for a few months I managed to run on the turf of the course; I logged almost 100 miles in a four month period, and then my company moved to a different town.  Note: this was a clue which I wasn't smart enough to pick up on.
• Determined to prove my surgeon wrong, I tried to continue running during the fall of 2005.  This was after the move and I had to revert to running on the roads again; after less than a month I had to quit because the asymmetry in my stride threw my back out and caused several pinched nerves which in turn caused massive spasms and cramps in both legs.
• In 2006 I didn't even try running; ditto in 2007.
• Determined to prove my surgeon wrong, I tried to start running again in the summer of 2008; I logged about 50 road miles over a two month period and the pinched nerves and spasms came right back.
• In late March 2009, with the economy in full retreat, I got let go by a full-time client, and in April of that year I discovered a network of ATV and Snowmobile trails I hadn't known about within 10 miles of my house.  I started running again, on the soft sandy dirt of the trails; 18-miles in April, about double that in May, and even more in June.  By fall of 2009 I managed my first 100-mile month since late 2002 before the broken leg.
• During 2009 and 2010 I did fall a few times (I had also gone blind in my right eye due to a cataract and had lost my depth perception), and I did twist both ankles badly (the left one had also been broken, back in 1974).  During those two years I probably lost a total of ten or so days due to recovering from the falls/twisted ankles.  My personal take was ten days off of running was better than the years I had to take off due to running on roads.
• Observations since 2010; over the next six years and some 8,700-miles (and counting) of running, I have probably logged over 5,000 miles of trail running and the rest on roads.  My ankles and feet are now surprisingly strong and flexible; just today I did a 16-mile trail run and not only did I step awkwardly on rocks and roots hidden by a blanket of fallen leaves, a number of those awkward steps were enough to have caused a severely twisted ankle seven years ago.  In additioin, I stepped on any number of rocks and acorns which would have caused severe foot pain back when I first started trail running in 2009; in both scenarios (twisted ankle and rock intrusion) today all I suffered was an involuntary "Ouch!" escaping my mouth and on I went without even breaking stride.

Final comment:

• I am a firm believer in trail running; that said, you MUST pay attention to every step and even then you WILL fall; it's not a matter of "if" it's just a matter of "when".

[AuroraKat]

@bcalvanese

I just recently purchased a pair of Brooks Transcend 3 - I absolutely adore them! Currently, they are my walking shoes, but will soon (hopefully) be used for very light jogging as well. How do you compare Hoka One Clayton to Transcend 3? Is the toe box on the Claytons comparable? What about support and coushioning? I want to get another two pairs of shoes to rotate. I am probably going to go with Ghost 9 for the second, but haven't been able to find a third that I like. 

As for trail vs. road running, I pretty much agree with everything @shipo said. Once my PT gives the go-ahead to light jogging, I will do so on trails, at least to start. This will help transition my injured knee back to running slowly and safely. 

If you are going to be running trails, I recommend balance and ankle-strengthening exercises. There are many yoga poses that help with both. My favorite for this purpose is the tree pose - http://www.yogabasics.com/asana/tree/ - but, there are others, so looks into it and see what works best for you! Of course, classic strength training will help as well. Some swear by Bosu ball exercises for ankle strength. But, from my research, this tends to be mostly beneficial to those who are recovering from ankle injuries. I haven't seen any definitie studies that show benefit to those with unijured ankles. However, it's something to look into as well. 

[bcalvanese]

@shipo You make a lot of very good points and if I had injured myself that badly I would probably have taken a similar path as you.

When I first started trying to run I didn't start off slow. One day I just decided to try and run (not jog), and I had a very old pair of shoes that probably had like a million miles on them. I only made it for 30 seconds at a time and I was still obese at the time. I did about half a dozen 30 second or so intervals, and each step I could feel my right knee jamming together, but trying to be all hard core I just kept doing it. I knew I was going to pay for it, and I did. I limped around for almost a month, and my power walks became power limps...:)

I have read many of your posts on running and have taken much of your advice about running style. I am developing a pretty good "heel touch mid food strike" style, and taking it very slow and easy. That combined with shoes made for running on hard surfaces have been working out pretty well for me so far. I feel good after my jog/walk intervals and am able to jog longer each time. My last session I did 2 half mile jog intervals and 2 mile jog intervals during a 7+ mile total distance.

Atheory I have is that running (road or trail) can improve joint health, but it has to be done properly and with the right footware. There are some parts of the trails that I use that have some grassy areas, and I may try your suggestions as I can.

And thank you for all your help.

@AuroraKat The Transcend 3's where my all time favorites. So much so that I bought 2 pairs of them. I bought these Clayton's on impulse, and did not even know that they were award winning shoes until after I got home from my first walk with them. My impression on my first walk was "wow these shoes feel great... I can run further and longer and easier...". I have run on this one dirt road on my rout because it's the only way to get through that part of the course, and these Clayton's remind me of that. They take so much impact out of each step, but at the same time they don't feel mushy or sluggish. I would highly recommend them if you are looking for a pair to rotate. I think they give you 30 days to try them, and if you dont like them, you can return them.

[jessica88]

I do a mixture of both. Probably 50/50, but I plan to continue transitioning more to trails. 

Like @shipo, I once had a surgeon tell me some bad knews; that I would never be able to do certain forms of activity due to some anatomical knee issues. Especially running. It ended up being the opposite - that being active was helpful for my issues lol. But it was a process of years. 

I first started out on roads - y'know, around the neighborhood and greenbelt. About a year into it, I tried a day on some mild trails. I swore never to do it again, one of my knees was just trashed afterwards. Stuck to roads for another year and a half-ish. On a whim, I decided to give trails another try since my workplace has some foothills behind it (showers at work - heck yes!). I was amazed that *suddenly* my knees were totally fine with trails - the ups and downs included. I made sure to transition slowly, but I've been doing well. And now, I'm running on ski resort trails and moutain biking trails and freaking loving it!

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@bcalvanese wrote:

Atheory I have is that running (road or trail) can improve joint health, but it has to be done properly and with the right footware. There are some parts of the trails that I use that have some grassy areas, and I may try your suggestions as I can.

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I'm actually finding that road running is a bit harder on me now than trails. It's like backwards world from how it used to be! 

Shoes: I'm on my 2nd pair of Altra Olympus 2.0 's. Love them. Bloody toenails plagued me until I started running in Altras. So, I'm pretty much a fangirl of the brand. I land midfoot/forefoot. 

[Ukase]

Oh, the irony of it all. 

It was lost on me for a long time. The whole notion of heading to a nature trail to exercise. If I want to be healthy, the solution is to avoid exercise, but embrace movement in nature. Stay out of the stores, plant your own food, raise goats, chickens, maybe a pig, too. 

But - that's a bit drastic, even for me. 

If I have the choice, I'll pick the nature trail every time. 

1. Because the terrain is uneven, I have to be more attentive. Also, this distributes the loads my body, my joints carry randomly, thus throwing my muscles a curve-ball every now and then. It's my belief this improves any training impact. 

2. Less stress on the joints. I'm not getting any younger. Bones, tendons, ligaments - they are live tissue, but I can't help but think their use is not infinite. If I live to be a 150 years old, I am not sure my knees would last that long. It's my prevailing thought that there's only so much tread on our joints. When it's over, it's over. Not a bit of scientific data to back that up, it's just the way I feel. 

3. Less chance of getting hit by a car. The drivers in my neighborhood are not aware of their surroundings. 

Did I mention less stress on the joints? 

Footgear - sneakers, orthotics and such: Consider the bare foot. Your bare foot. 

Go ahead, stand up and look at it while you're in bare feet. Well, look at both of them. When you do this, you'll see that your heel is on the ground, right? And look - so are your toes. Not flat  - but the "balls" of your toes, the balls of your feet are on the ground. There is no "lift" under your heel. 

Yet, without exception, all of our shoes seem to have this. I believe this is because of the tendency for some runners to continue their stride with the heel striking the ground instead of the area below the meta-tarsals. 

Even in our children, our very young children, all the shoes seem to have this elevation under our heels. I am not a bio-mechanist, but I have learned enough to know that this is not a good thing. So, if your shoes have this lift, then I wouldn't agree that you are minimizing risk of injury, but increasing the chances of it. 

That may seem alarmist. <shrug> 

I mean, we've done shoes this way for at least 30 years. Maybe more. But, my guess is that it's not a good thing. Your opinion may vary. 

[jessica88]

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@Ukase wrote:

There is no "lift" under your heel. 

Yet, without exception, all of our shoes seem to have this.

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Well, that's not entirely true; there are plenty of minimal drop shoes out there. Heck, the brand I run in are actually completely zero drop. It wasn't the main selling point to me (I  the toebox), but the shoe has been working for me as a package deal - drop included. 

But I think everyone is different and has different needs, which is why it's great there are so many options out there nowadays. Just don't run in these  😜

[bcalvanese]

@shipo

Can you tell me what shoes you wore when road running?

thanks,

[shipo]

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@bcalvanese wrote:

@shipo

Can you tell me what shoes you wore when road running?

thanks,

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Before I mention what I run in I'll say this:

• Different makers seem to specialize in different foot types; the lasts used by Nike are not the same as the ones used by New Balance, Brooks, Adidas, Asics, or any other brand, and vice versa.
• Your best bet is to do some research on sites like RoadRunnerSports.com; they have a number of helpful aids which help you narrow your search to a few manufacturers and then spend an hour or two in a dedicated running store trying on all of the models you can.

In the case of both my wife and myself, we have high arches and wide(ish) feet biased outward (or inward as the case may be) toward the big toes (Brooks for instance are wide enough for us but are biased wide to the outside of the foot which in turn leads to a lot of pain in the big toes).  The shoes which work best for both of us are Asics; will they work for any given other individual?  Maybe, maybe not.

There, does that sufficiently answer your question or does it muddy the waters further?  🙂

[bcalvanese]

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@shipo wrote:

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@bcalvanese wrote:

@shipo

Can you tell me what shoes you wore when road running?

thanks,

---

Before I mention what I run in I'll say this:

• Different makers seem to specialize in different foot types; the lasts used by Nike are not the same as the ones used by New Balance, Brooks, Adidas, Asics, or any other brand, and vice versa.
• Your best bet is to do some research on sites like RoadRunnerSports.com; they have a number of helpful aids which help you narrow your search to a few manufacturers and then spend an hour or two in a dedicated running store trying on all of the models you can.

In the case of both my wife and myself, we have high arches and wide(ish) feet biased outward (or inward as the case may be) toward the big toes (Brooks for instance are wide enough for us but are biased wide to the outside of the foot which in turn leads to a lot of pain in the big toes).  The shoes which work best for both of us are Asics; will they work for any given other individual?  Maybe, maybe not.

There, does that sufficiently answer your question or does it muddy the waters further?  🙂

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I hear ya about shoes.

I have been on a quest with shoes for close to a year now, and have about 20 pair so far.

Brooks

Asics

Adidas

Hoka One One

Saucony

New Balance

Solomon

Nike

Ecco

my top 2 are the Hoka One One Claytons and the Brooks Transcend 3 for road running. I base that on how i feel when running on the road. I feel for the amount of stress on my joints from my feet to my back, and can tell well before it starts to cause even slight pain. I will stop the jog interval and start power walking before the stress turns to pain. These Hoka One One Claytons are the best ones I have found so far. They have great cushoning, but not at all mushy and are reactive at the same time. To me, it feels like I am jogging on grass or dirt. And with your advice on my running style I am up to jogging 1.5 miles non stop...:)

Thank you for all your help. This forum needs people like you.