How do people average 50000 steps per day?

[Emmeli]

Who has the time to average 50,000 steps a day!? How can this be possible?

Moderator edit: updated subject for clarity

[Corney]

BruceBu we are arguing semantics, if Hyaline cartilage did regenerate at a
reasonable rate there wouldn't be so many total knee, hips and shoulders.
I ran 6-7 miles daily for over 25 years, ran countless 10K's and 2
marathons. I'm 70 years old and have no joint problems, because I quit
running at the first sign of problems and switched to other forms of
aerobic exercise. Regenerating poorly does not stop the pain and
disfigurement of advanced degenerative arthritis. We can argue until the
cows come home but the fact is overuse has to be added in to all the other
risk factors associated with running and walking.

[Corney]

GershonSurge, I totally agree with the article. Weight bearing activity
keeps bones, tendons and ligaments strong as well as muscles. Inactivity
does just the opposite it weakens bones, tendons, ligaments and muscles.
If hyaline cartilage was not subject to the normal wear and tear of aging
then there wouldn't be the number of total joints being performed on a
daily basis. In a perfect world we would all get the right amount of
exercise on a daily basis, but we don't live in a perfect world, we don't
all eat clean, genetics come into play. So to all those who log 50K-100K
steps per day, have a good day.

[BruceBu]

@Corney, @Rando1ph is right. This is more trouble than it is worth. I still make the distiction between walking and running (not a surprise that you started damaging yourself running 7 miles *every day*). LIke many things in life, I'm willing to take the risks to get the rewards. Peace!

[GershonSurge]

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@Corney

@BruceBu

The reason I'm so interested in this topic is I do believe 50,000 steps a day is possible. The 80,000 number is way outside my experience, so I can't conceive of how to do it. 

Bruce lives in the part of Colorado where many ultra-marathoners train. I'd be willing to bet he has met some of the great ones. Who know? Maybe his is one of the great ones. I don't want to miss the opportunity to learn from him because we keep going in circles.

When a discussion comes to an impass, there is a method developed by Eliyahu Goldatt called "evaporating the cloud." The method involves each person listing their assumptions, and then either proving them wrong or proving them correct. It has to be done with both people working together on the solution without caring who is right. 

@CorneyI I made a list of what I think your assumptions are. Add any more you might have.

@BruceBu Let us know if any of these assumptions is impossible to overcome. 

Later, we can take them one by one.

1. It can't be done

2. Bruce is talking about running.

3. Biomechanics are not correctable. (I know you didn't say this directly.)

4. Wear and tear is an inevitable result of aging.

5. Degeneration is an inevitable result of aging.

6. People are capable of sticking to a diet that prevents degeneration.

7. Genetics are important. 

8. People are capable of deciding the "perfect amount of exercise" that will prevent injury.

9. Rhumatoid arthritis is not curable.

10. Osteo-arthritis can't be arrested.

11.  Ultra-marathoners run fast.

12. A person can't be an ultra-marathoner and have a job.

13, We are saying everyone can average 50,000 steps a day without years of preparation.

14. Allopathic medicine works.

15. It is inevitable that ligaments will be stressed.

16. It is inevitable that tendons will be stressed.

17. Regeneration is impossible.

Let me know if you have any others.

[GershonSurge]

@Corney

 You said: "Show me an article from a respected medical journal where they state Hyaline cartilage regenerates."

I think you have the burden of proof backwards.

Show me a peer reviewed study that shows endurance runners experience more degeneration than the average person. 

[Corney]

GershonSurge

It can be done

I don't know what Bruce is talking about, but I know I ran 6-7 miles everyday for over 25 years and it finally caught up with me because I don't run with perfect Bio-mechanics, one leg is longer that the other and I'm a Hyper- pronator because of it.  I used a lift in the shorter leg and finally went to orthotics, it kept me running for 5 more years but it was not enough to prevent symptoms to occur.

Wear and tear is inevitable because of aging, but it does not have to reach the stage that requires surgery.

Degeneration of some sort is inevitable result of aging, for example you are shorter now that you were at age 25 because the disks between each vertebra loose their ability to retain fluid thereby shrink in height.

I don't know of a diet that prevents degeneration, so let me know of one.

Genetics is very important

People are capable of deciding the right amount of exercise if they listen to their body, over exercise and your immune system breaks down and you develop a fever or a cold. That's why elite Marathoners gear up for 3-4 Marathons a year and no more.

Rheumatoid arthritis is not curable, medication and surgery is available to ease symptoms and slow down disfigurement of joints, if you have proof to the contrary I'd like to see it.

Osteo-arthritis can be arrested through changes in behavior, medication, surgery, but if someone is lucky enough to live long enough they will develop degenerative changes in most major joints especially the spine.

Ultra-marathoners don't run fast.

Ultra-marathoners can still work and run Ultra-marathons

I suppose most everyone could average 50K steps per day without years of preparation, but not everyone could keep it up for 10-15 years.

Allopathic may work for some people, just like Chiropractors help some people.  But people who go to these practitioners must have a strong belief that they will help them.  In China people go through surgery using only acupuncture because their society has believed in this for centuries.

It's inevitable that ligaments will be stressed, without stress on bones, ligaments and tendons these structures will weaken.  Your bone structure changes everyday depending on the amount of stress you placed on it yesterday, too little and they lose calcium and minerals, too much and you may suffer a stress fracture.

Regeneration is possible in bones, skin, liver cells are capable of regeneration, Hyaline cartilage regenerates poorly, surgical intervention in cases of Hyaline cartilage damage is sucessful in about 50% of the time, but the surgeon will tell the patient that it will only postpone the inevitable total joint surgery.  This surgery is like a band-aid, it does ease symptoms for a time but does not address the original cause of the cartilage damage, be it an injury, or Bio-mechanical faults in the joint kinematics which are too numerous to mention today.  But I will if you are interested at a later date.

Thanks for the discussion, look forward to further discussions with you.

[Corney]

BruceBu  Like you I was willing to take the risks to get the rewards.  Looking back on those 25 years the rewards far outweighed the risks, especially when I listened to my body and quit running.  I was in depression for months after, but found other oulets that gave me the same runner's high without doing damage to my feet and knees.  At 70 I have no ill effects from my running years but have many fond memories of many of my early morning runs, 10K races and my 2 marathons and one mini triathalon.  Peace be will you also!

[GershonSurge]

@Corney,

Ok, now you've listed your objections or clarifications on the list of assumptions. According to Eliyahu Goldratt, conflict ALWAYS exists at the level of assumptions. We can never agree until we agree on these. There are some we will never agree on, but perhaps we can restate them in a way that we will both be happy.

At this point, we figuratively move to the same side of the table and attempt to resolve a problem. To do that, I'll restate it in two ways that may be acceptible.

1. Can a person average 50,000 steps a day without short term or long term injury?

2. How can a person average 50,000 steps a day without short term or long term injury?

This one contains an assumptive conclusion, and I recognize that. It's for the person who is determined to do it.

The first step is to resolve the easy ones. When we agree on a resolution, I'll change the color to green on the original list.

2. Bruce (and others) are talking about running.

You keep returning to the fact that you used to run seven miles a day and started to develop problems. We are talking about walking or a mixture of walking and slow runnning just slightly faster than walking. Some might run faster.

I'd like to change this assumption to include: 1. The participant will likely walk or run slowly. Some miles may be fast. The 50,000 steps also includes lifestyle steps.

We don't have to agree this makes it possible. By itself, it doesn't. It will just be one of the conditions that may make it possible.

8. People are capable of deciding the "perfect amount of exercise" that will prevent injury.

Although we agreed on this, I'd like to change it to people are capable of learning to decide on a level of exercise that will prevent injury. 

We may never arrive at even partial agreement on the possibility of a small segment of the population doing 50,000 steps a day without injury. Either way, we will learn new information.

[Corney]

GershonSurge  1  If a person walks without the numerous bio-mechanical faults I mentioned earlier it will depend on how many years they do it and if they listen to what their body is telling them.  Pain is an early indicator of a problem and if they are knowledgeable about what the wear pattern on their shoes indicate they may be able to log 50K steps a day without short term problems, long term problems depends on what I mentioned earlier.

2.  Not have any of the numerous bio-mechanical faults mentioned earlier, listen to their body and know what to look for in their shoe's wear pattern.

I was lucky, I did alot of reading on running injuries because running was so important to me.  My first indication I had a problem was the wear pattern of my shoes, second came Plantar fasciitis, which was eliminated with a lift in my short leg, running against traffic( roads are crowned) so my long leg was always on the lowest part of the road, and finally with orthotics, the final indication I had to stop running was Patellar Femoral Syndrome, called runners knee.  So I listened to my body and it told me to stop running, which was one of the darkest day of my life

2.  Since runners land with the force of 3 times their body weight, any bio-mechanical fault is magnified 3 times.

8.  There is no perfect amount of exercise that will prevent injury.  I have found cross training to be an excellent alternative to injury prevention.  I alternate days on a rower it encourages full knee range of motion, adequate ankle range of motion, good core strengthening and no pounding on my body, stationary bike mainly for cardiovascular, and an ellipitical.  On the days I don't row I also lift weights, mainly to  continue to keep my Right shoulder strrong and maintain range of motion after Rotator cuff surgery.

I think the majority of the population lack the knowledge of the bio-mechanical faults caused by buying shoes that look good but do not offer the proper amount of arch support or rear foot stability. They also don't understand that the leg consists of a 3 part Kinetic chain and if one part of that chain develops a problem it will eventually encompass all parts of the chain.  In short, the majority of people take walking for granted and never realize the amount abuse their feet take everyday, until they develop foot pain.  Here's a simple test,  

Standing, put the medial (inside) ankle bones together, if the medial aspect of your knees touch your knees are in good shape, if there is space between your medial knees you have a Varas deformity indicative of the erosion of the Hyaline cartilage on the medial Femoral Condyle and medial Tibial Plateau, if the medial aspects of your knee touch before the medial ankle bones touch, you have a Valgus deformity indicative of erosion of the Hyaline cartilage on the lateral Femoral Condyle and lateral Tibial Plateau.  Once this occurs it will not get any better and unless the bio-mechanical fault is fixed it will only get worse.

I've enjoyed our conversation and hope some of what I've written helps. 

[BruceBu]

From

http://www.arthritisresearchuk.org/arthritis-information/q-and-a/selfhelp-exercise-and-healthy-lifes...

I’m pinning my colours to the mast here: from now on I’m taking a zero-tolerance position on the phrase ‘wear and tear’ – so let’s hear no more of it (from doctors as well as everyone else)! It’s a horrible term and makes people think of progressive, inevitable destruction of their joints, which doesn’t fit with what we know is happening in joints that are affected by osteoarthritis.

Our joints aren't machine parts that simply wear out. They're dynamic tissues that are constantly responding to the stresses and strains that we put through them.

There's a continuous process of ‘wear and repair’ happening in our joints. But some circumstances tip the balance more towards wear in the joint rather than repair. For example, injury or muscle weakness around the joint, which in turn leads to pain and the changes seen in the joint in osteoarthritis.

Addressing problems like muscle weakness or abnormal load passing through the joint can help to bring the balance back towards the repair process. In summary – for most people osteoarthritis isn’t an inevitably progressive thing and can be modified by looking for and addressing the problems that tip the balance from wear to repair in the joints.

I have always been talking about healthy people, my realm of experience, not people that are already damaged and will likely degenerate further if they don't listen to their bodies..

[GershonSurge]

Before we get too far into this, I want to give an example of a person who averaged about 40,000 steps a day for 196 days while walking across the United States. He walked about 50,000 steps on his hiking days. He didn't mention any significant physical problems during the hike. 

You can read his journal here.

MR.LEE'S HIKING STATISTICS

Trip Miles 3399.17 Total Number of Days 196 Total Number of Zero Mile Days 54 Total Number of Hiking Days 142 Average Miles per Day 17.34 Average Miles per Hiking Day 23.94 Average Miles per Week 121.40 Number of days in Trail Towns 54 Number of nights in a Shelter 3 Number of nights in a Tent 61 Number of nights in a Hammock 0 Number of nights Under the Stars 0 Number of nights in a Hotel 94 Number of nights in a Hostel 11 Number of nights in a House 27 Number of Day Hikes 0 Longest Day 39.80 Shortest Day 2 Number of Days over 20 Miles 114 Number of Days between 15-20 22 Number of Days between 10-15 4 Number of Days between 5-10 1 Number of Days between .1-5 1 Longest section with no days off     Miles: 260   Days: 11 Most consective days off 3

[Corney]

GershonSurge  To Quote Machiavelli " What ever doesn't kill you makes you stronger"  I say whatever doesn't do you harm makes you stronger, and it's an individual thing.  There are two ends of the spectrum, one is being sedentary which will do you harm in many ways, the opposite end is doing too much which will do you harm at some time in your life.  I'm a prime example of the latter, after running 6-7 miles for 25 years, competing in numerous races, 10K's half marathons, and 2 marathons doing the proper training( progressively longer runs on Saturdays), I reached the point where it was doing me harm and was knowledgeable enough to realize that, so I quit.  This man averaged 40k steps for 196 days so obviously he did not reach a point where he was doing himself harm, but that is only 196 days.  My concern is for the people that supposedly log 50K steps everyday for years, have the attitude that I had, if some is good more is better, and lack the knowledge or refuse to accept the signs and symptoms that they are doing harm to their bodies. Where an individual falls on the spectrum of the proper amount of exercise is an individual thing that depends on many criteria, genetics,bio-mechanics etc.  I just hope they listen to their bodies and when their bodies tell them enough is enough they heed the warning, like I did, before it's too late.  I'm just being a realist, aging is inevitable, ones behaviors can speed it up or slow it down, but you can't stop it.  I think eating clean combined with sensible exercise is the prescription for slowing the aging process, so people can not only live a long life, but a happy healthy active life.  Have a good day!

[Corney]

BruceBu  I totally agree.  My motto is moderation is the key, but eveyones idea of moderation is different.  In the end we were given free will to do what we think is best for our bodies.  As we age we will all pay for our choices, be they sensible or not.

[Corney]

Rando1ph  What's your point!

[kens33]

this is one individual who wanted to do it, and still avaraged under 50k a day for 196 days, wow congrats to him. now the question begs 50k per day for a year, you should have joined him, dont believe it end of story im done no more comments. facts are facts keep using the the dryer

[Oriondestiny]

I would say to enjoy the time of life that you can do this much because eventually you get old and can't do any of this sort of thing any more. I had though that my 18-22 year old range was my most in shape and active years but now here in my 40's I am doing just as much, if not more and have out done my earlier years. I'm enjoying the good health and vitality while it lasts because I see those around me my age and older unable to do what I'm doing as they haven't kept in shape and gained a load of pounds over the years.

[MihaiMVP]

My best 30-day moving average so far is close to 60,000. This is how it went:

61504, 36349, 52985, 37666, 35633, 73299, 59415,

31121, 60126, 36682, 37713, 23508,144044, 74571,

26350, 64050, 60175, 50025, 36611, 65776, 58320,

47002, 53549, 73173, 70830, 36422, 82165, 91974,

57209,125024

The last two values in each row are usually higher, because they were weekend days.

[GershonSurge]

@MihaiMVP

Nice month!

[GershonSurge]

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@Oriondestiny wrote:

I would say to enjoy the time of life that you can do this much because eventually you get old and can't do any of this sort of thing any more. I had though that my 18-22 year old range was my most in shape and active years but now here in my 40's I am doing just as much, if not more and have out done my earlier years. I'm enjoying the good health and vitality while it lasts because I see those around me my age and older unable to do what I'm doing as they haven't kept in shape and gained a load of pounds over the years.

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@Oriondestiny

I'm 63. Although we slow down as we age, there is no reason not to have health and vitality for a long time.

I noticed in one of your other posts you are interested in virtual hikes. You might want to check out the "48 State Virtual Hike" topic in "Get Moving." It uses what I call "Fitbit miles" instead of steps.

[WoodlandsTexas]

Yes, I am an Ironman Triathlete and very comfortable with endurance training; I was invited to some challenge groups that were pretty aggressive when I was rather new to the Fitbit.  So 35,000 steps per day was not unfamiliar nor exhausting for me.  What I did come to discover; the Fitbit does not track my swim nor my bike training on the trainer.  I spun an hour and it only provided me with 264 steps.  I called Fitbit Tec support and they said the Fitbit is mainly made for tracking walking.    Well, here I am putting in hundreds of steps per day in this Challange Group and their were a few cheating individuals who were putting on an insurmountable amount of steps, so I continued on with my honest self and kept stepping.  As my Fitbit would sync, they would see where I was and had passed them, they so they were somehow putting on insurmountable amounts of steps to get past me and I worked even harder to keep up, mind you, I am an Ironman Athlete.   Well I got smart, I turned off my phone and i pad so my Fitbit would not continuously sync and show everyone my steppage and this is where they got caught.  I continued to step through the evening and turned my devises on right before midnight to sync before the the midnight cut off and I was clearly way, way ahead of every body in the four groups I was invited into.  I was astonished that the Fitbit Groups could not have an honest friendly challenge and would go to any length to cheat.   Shame on these people, Karma has a ticket waiting for you.  I also Googled the Fitbit Cheat and/or Manipulation and found people put their Fitbit's on animals, their ankles when riding their bikes, on drills and just hold the drill as it spins around logging hundreds of steps, strapping the devise to their ankle and just tapping their foot as they sit at their desk all day or passing the same Fitbit between numerous people to win.   I couldn't believe the dishonesty.

If you know of any honest Fitbit Groups, I would enjoy joining as long as the competitors are honest.  I am a 55 year old female and do acquire a lot of steppage per day outside of work due to my training.  Heads up people!   Be smart and be aware.