Need Some Running Tips

[bcalvanese]

Ok, so I am to the point where I cannot get a good cardio from walking unless I walk on hilly terrain at a 4.2 mph (or greater) pace. I don't know how many people walk that fast for 7+ miles, and every place I walk, I pass "everyone" who is walking. I even have kept up with a couple joggers here and there.

I like to stay in zone 4 (80 - 90 percent of mhr), but it is getting harder and harder to do that, so I have decided to start jogging.

I have tried the walk/run thing several times, but I seem to keep injuring a knee or groin muscle. It feels good at the time, but the next day I start feeling it, then it makes it hard to even get my walks in until it heals up. I think it is because I am not taking it slow enough and trying to do more of a run than a light jog. I also tend to be a heel striker, but i have been trying to develop a midfoot strike and a lighter impact.

@FitBeforeFifty mentioned the C25k method to me in another thread. I did a quick search and found it. I looked through it and understand the basic jist of it. My initial plan is as follows...

I have a Garmin fenix 3 HR which I can customize any of the activity apps to give me different alerts. I set the "run' app with a run/walk alert. It will alert me to run for 60 seconds and walk for 120 seconds. This will be 1 minute of jogging and 2 minutes of walking. I also set another alert to alert me after 21 minutes, signaling the end of the workout. During the workout I have the screens set up to monitor heart rate (with zones), pace, speed, cadence, and distance. I can monitor these as I am doing the workout by scrolling through the screens on the device.

As I get conditioned to the 1 minute of jogging and 2 minutes of walking, I will increase the running and decrease the walking (along the same line as the C25k) until I can jog (light jog) for the entire time.

Once I can lightly jog the 5k (or 3 miles), I will start working on increasing my pace and slowly work my way into a run.

This device will also calculate my VO2max during a run exercise, so I will be able to monitor my fitness level changes over time.

Anyway, this is my initial plan, and I welcome any tips that you runners may have.

[brerbill]

You are definitely walking as fast, or faster, than some people's easy jogging paces! Have you ever considered training for racewalking? Sounds like you'd be really good at it. Some local 5 & 10K races have Racewalking Divisions.

A couple of things that worked for me were (1) transitioning to minimal shoes with far less "heel drop", such as 4mm, to help change from a heavy heel strike to more of a midfoot strike, and (2) sometimes wearing a knee brace for additional support, like I did today when my knee bothers me, or I even think it will, and when I increase mleage substantially.

Staying in a high HR zone when speedwalking or running is probably best reserved for just once or twice a week at most; otherwise, you stand a good chance of eventual injury (possibly why your knees give you  trouble). Most runs should be at an easy pace in the fat burning zone, not in a high cardio zone at tempo pace - which is recommended for shorter, more intense workouts. For example, I jogged 12 miles today for my weekly long run at an average HR of only 117 (although my tempo pace HR would put me up to around a HR of 160 or so). Wanting to go fast all the time is a common mistake new runers make. You may be surprised to find that running easy most of the time will give you the ability to go faster with less effort once or twice a week! Don't keep forcing your pace every day (except for the occaisional speedwork/tempo run), which should increase naturally with increased mileage, also. Other than possibly the C25K program (to be able to run 3 miles without any walking in 2-3 months of training), all running plans for any distance race training have these principles built in to them.

Your plan to customize the C25K training sounds good to me - Good luck!

[JohnRi]

Depending on your age, and if your were active in sports when you were younger, some people can never run.  Every time I've tried to add running to my exercise program, I started up very slow.  Doing the occasional running, mostly running.  Every time it has resulted in knee or other injuries.  I think the years of stress on my joints and tenders carrying the extra weight have done me in for running.

I'll try again in another 20 lbs lost to see if my lighter frame could take it.  My heavier weight body could not take it.

Have you considered biking?  I rode yesterday for 19 miles, around 1200 calories burned, 90 minutes.  Yeah it trashes your step count, but I don't care about that.  If I really get my speed up, 14+ mph, I can burn 1500 calories in 90 minutes.   I know people can ride 20+ mph, as they speed right past me.  I've only been riding, on/off, for a couple of months.  Until I had a minor fall, I've never been injured riding a bike.  And if you can walk 4.2+ mph, you can ride at least 14 mph.  Saddle sore will keep you under 10 miles at first, but you should be able to add 1 mile per week.   Walking 4 mph I can get my heart up to 140 at times, but riding I can hit 160.

I took up biking, when walking just wasn't cutting it.  I walk and bike on alternating days.

[shipo · Accepted solution]

@bcalvanese, as you've seen me write on several occasions, I coach a lot of beginners on both my company running club as well as a local running club in our area, and have coached dozens of folks about our age (you and I are within a year of the same age) through the C25K program and who have never run before.  Here are some if the points I stress when coaching:

1. Nose over toes; many beginning runners have a tendence to over stride, keeping your nose over your toes will still allow a natural "heal touch" first, but transition the main weight contact to the mid-foot area.
2. Run on dirt or grass whereever and whenever possible.  In addition to the cushioning benefits of running on grass and dirt, there are other benefits, chief among them are a different series of stresses for every step (as opposed to having step after step after step being of a very similar nature and series of stresses), and imporvement of ankle flexibility under load.
3. When the C25K program says "run", that means "run barely faster than a fast walk"; many folks interpret the "run" directive to mean, "run as fast as you can".
4. Repeat weeks as necessary; it is not at all unusual for someone to work up to say, week 4, and then realize they just aren't there yet.  When this happens, no worries, repeat week 3 as necessary until you feel ready for week 4.
5. Once you've reached the end of the C25K program and can run non-stop for the full 3.1 miles, start extending your training runs at the same pace (or slower), and keep extending the runs until you can run for roughly 1 hour non-stop.  Once to that threshold, you can gradually start speeding things up, however, see my LSD comments below.
6. Long Slow Distance (LSD); I am an advocate of strict LSD for beginning runners; nothing, and I do mean NOTHING improves speed over a 5K distance for a beginning runner better than lots of LSD.  Once a runner can run roughly 6 miles at a 10:00 per mile pace (i.e. 1 hour), the best way to start introducing the body to the rigors of faster speeds is to start dialing up the pace for say the last quarter of a mile; then the last half mile, then mile, then two miles.  That said, once you're ready for dialing up the pace for the last two miles, you're long since ready for extending the distance as well; try 8 slow miles some days and 6 miles with a fast finish on others.

[bcalvanese]

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@brerbill wrote:

You are definitely walking as fast, or faster, than some people's easy jogging paces! Have you ever considered training for racewalking? Sounds like you'd be really good at it. Some local 5 & 10K races have Racewalking Divisions.

A couple of things that worked for me were (1) transitioning to minimal shoes with far less "heel drop", such as 4mm, to help change from a heavy heel strike to more of a midfoot strike, and (2) sometimes wearing a knee brace for additional support, like I did today when my knee bothers me, or I even think it will, and when I increase mleage substantially.

Staying in a high HR zone when speedwalking or running is probably best reserved for just once or twice a week at most; otherwise, you stand a good chance of eventual injury (possibly why your knees give you  trouble). Most runs should be at an easy pace in the fat burning zone, not in a high cardio zone at tempo pace - which is recommended for shorter, more intense workouts. For example, I jogged 12 miles today for my weekly long run at an average HR of only 117 (although my tempo pace HR would put me up to around a HR of 160 or so). Wanting to go fast all the time is a common mistake new runers make. You may be surprised to find that running easy most of the time will give you the ability to go faster with less effort once or twice a week! Don't keep forcing your pace every day (except for the occaisional speedwork/tempo run), which should increase naturally with increased mileage, also. Other than possibly the C25K program (to be able to run 3 miles without any walking in 2-3 months of training), all running plans for any distance race training have these principles built in to them.

Your plan to customize the C25K training sounds good to me - Good luck!

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I watched some youtube vidios on race walking and I do keep my arms at a 90 degree angle like that, but would not want to be caught dead wiggling my butt back and forth like that...LOL

I do have a few pair of really good running shoes made for running on hard sufaces. I have also been working on a midfoot strike, and getting better at it.

I did injure my knee once while trying to run (not jog) with old cheap shoes. I went back to power walking and used a knee brace, but it made my knee hurt worse for some reason, so i took the brace off and just took it easy until it healed up. I never injured my knee power walking, and when i did it running, i think i was just trying to progress too fast, and not start with a slow easy jog.

I am currently working on my midfoot strike, and keeping a nice slow easy jog, and so far i have not hurt myself yet. I think i just need to build up very gradually.

thanks, for the advice.

[bcalvanese]

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@JohnRi wrote:

Depending on your age, and if your were active in sports when you were younger, some people can never run.  Every time I've tried to add running to my exercise program, I started up very slow.  Doing the occasional running, mostly running.  Every time it has resulted in knee or other injuries.  I think the years of stress on my joints and tenders carrying the extra weight have done me in for running.

I'll try again in another 20 lbs lost to see if my lighter frame could take it.  My heavier weight body could not take it.

Have you considered biking?  I rode yesterday for 19 miles, around 1200 calories burned, 90 minutes.  Yeah it trashes your step count, but I don't care about that.  If I really get my speed up, 14+ mph, I can burn 1500 calories in 90 minutes.   I know people can ride 20+ mph, as they speed right past me.  I've only been riding, on/off, for a couple of months.  Until I had a minor fall, I've never been injured riding a bike.  And if you can walk 4.2+ mph, you can ride at least 14 mph.  Saddle sore will keep you under 10 miles at first, but you should be able to add 1 mile per week.   Walking 4 mph I can get my heart up to 140 at times, but riding I can hit 160.

I took up biking, when walking just wasn't cutting it.  I walk and bike on alternating days.

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I was in the army from 1983 to 1989 and ran like crazy. Even after i  got out i was running about 5 miles every other day. It has been about 25 years since then though, and i think i am just trying too fast.

I do ride my bike (sometimes about 15 miles) and do enjoy it, but my main thing has always been power walking, and i think i would like to be able to jog again. I also kayak in the summer months. I go like a madman from one end of the lake to the other and back. Then i take a minute break and do it again. Its a great complete upper body workout because you are using all your pushing muscles on one side and all your pulling muscles on the other side, and engaging your core the whole time.

I still have 20 lbs. to lose, but i think i've lost enough to gradually build up to running. I also plan on doing more muscular stuff. I dont do that enough.

Thanks for the input.

[bcalvanese]

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@shipo wrote:

@bcalvanese, as you've seen me write on several occasions, I coach a lot of beginners on both my company running club as well as a local running club in our area, and have coached dozens of folks about our age (you and I are within a year of the same age) through the C25K program and who have never run before.  Here are some if the points I stress when coaching:

1. Nose over toes; many beginning runners have a tendence to over stride, keeping your nose over your toes will still allow a natural "heal touch" first, but transition the main weight contact to the mid-foot area.

This is exacly how i ijured my knee the first time. I over extended my stride and landed on my heel with a straight leg. It felt like i was jamming my leg through my hip. Its funny you mention the "heel touch" and mid foot strike, because that is exactly what i have been working on.

2. Run on dirt or grass whereever and whenever possible.  In addition to the cushioning benefits of running on grass and dirt, there are other benefits, chief among them are a different series of stresses for every step (as opposed to having step after step after step being of a very similar nature and series of stresses), and imporvement of ankle flexibility under load.

Not sure i can go this rout as i turned my ankle really bad when i was in my 20's, and if stand on the side of that foot and put any weight on it, my ankle will pop right out. If i happen to hit uneven ground with all my weight comming down on that foot, it would probably be pretty bad. I do however have really good running shoes for road running (Brooks Glycerin 13's, and Brooks Trancend 3's).

3. When the C25K program says "run", that means "run barely faster than a fast walk"; many folks interpret the "run" directive to mean, "run as fast as you can".

Agreed. I assumed the same thing and suffered for it...:)

4. Repeat weeks as necessary; it is not at all unusual for someone to work up to say, week 4, and then realize they just aren't there yet.  When this happens, no worries, repeat week 3 as necessary until you feel ready for week 4.

This is why I modified it to what i think i can do, and will adjust as needed for my pace. My Garmin fenix 3 HR is a great tool for this as I can monitor and record my workouts and adjust it to my progression.

5. Once you've reached the end of the C25K program and can run non-stop for the full 3.1 miles, start extending your training runs at the same pace (or slower), and keep extending the runs until you can run for roughly 1 hour non-stop.  Once to that threshold, you can gradually start speeding things up, however, see my LSD comments below.

6. Long Slow Distance (LSD); I am an advocate of strict LSD for beginning runners; nothing, and I do mean NOTHING improves speed over a 5K distance for a beginning runner better than lots of LSD.  Once a runner can run roughly 6 miles at a 10:00 per mile pace (i.e. 1 hour), the best way to start introducing the body to the rigors of faster speeds is to start dialing up the pace for say the last quarter of a mile; then the last half mile, then mile, then two miles.  That said, once you're ready for dialing up the pace for the last two miles, you're long since ready for extending the distance as well; try 8 slow miles some days and 6 miles with a fast finish on others.

Did not know about this but it makes sense. I'm going to try this once i get to that point.

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@shipo First I would like to upologize for misjudging you and being a total jerk in other threads. I copped a bad atitude with you and it was me being way over concerned about safety matters.

You have some exellent points. See my comments above.

And thank you.

[shipo]

@bcalvanese, no worries, it's all good.  🙂

A few comments:

• Regarding being cautious when it comes to running on dirt or other irregular surfaces following an injury, trust me, I really under stand that; in 1974 I broke my left leg down near the ankle, and in 2003 I suffered a broken Tib/Fib (just above the ankle) and a partially torn off right foot.  The surgeon who (literally) screwed me back together told me I'd walk with a limp for the rest of mile life and never run again.  Oddly enough, it was running on dirt which allowed me to get back into running; the problem was, I didn't discover the whole dirt thing until I'd gone six years and gained over 100 pounds.
• Regarding running on irregular surfaces with a weak ankles (the left one had developed significant Osteoarthritis in the years since broken in 1974 and was very tender as well); the trails I started running on following my 6-year hiatus due to the reconstruction of my right ankle was strewn with lots of rocks and "root snakes" (trail runner humor); I made it a point to go R-E-A-L -- S-L-O-W for those first many months of getting back into running, and even then, I did step wrong and twist both ankles badly on several occasions.  The good news is I stuck with it and have since covered somewhere in the neighborhood of five to six thousand trail miles since 2009.  Both ankles have very good range of motion, are strong, and compliant to the point of being able to misstep, absorb a twist which would have dropped me on my face seven years ago, and to simply shake it off in a few steps.

A couple of additional comments on taking it easy on the C25K program and subsequent LSD running:

• The muscular and the cardio pulmonary systems develop at a relatively rapid pace, however, ligaments, tendons, bones, and joints grow/develop at a significantly slower pace.
• It is very easy for a beginning runner to get to the point where they can over do it, and if they give into the temptation to explore their new strength, they can (and usually do) cause significant injury to their legs, even someone with thousands of walking miles under their belts and/or thousands of hours in the gym lifting weights.  The thing is, nothing prepares the body to endure the rigors of running like lots of LSD.

[bcalvanese]

Here are the stats of my first "official" jog/walk session. 1 minute of light jog/2 minutes fast walk repeated throughout the session.

distance: 3.18 mi.

time: 43:38

avg. pace: 13:42

best pace: 10:34

avg. speed: 4.4 mph 

max speed: 5.7 mph

avg heart rate: 137

max heart rate: 152

avg cadence: 140

max cadence: 165

training effect: 3.9

Here is a link to the workout on my Garmin Connect page...

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1232902020

still open for input and/or pointers.

thanks,

[shipo]

My only comment might be to slow the running bits down a little; a 10:34 pace at a 165 cadence is pretty quick for a beginner.  Heck, my run last night was done at a 10:26 pace with a 159 cadence; very similar to your peak pace.

Other than that you're looking good.  🙂

[FitBeforeFifty]

@bcalvanese, when I run intervals I change my watch to display average lap pace and then reset my lap for each interval. If your device can do this, I think it would be useful and help you maintain a slower pace in the beginning like @shipo recommended. @shipo has more experience with new runners than I do but based on your garmin data and the paces I've seen from some of the "novice" runners in my work running group, I would think shooting for a 12:00 pace would be a good target in the beginning.

[bcalvanese]

@FitBeforeFifty@shipo If you click on the link to the activity, scroll down to the graphs, and move the mous along the graphs, it will display the pace & cadence numbers throughout the activity, and you can see that the average pace during the run parts are about 12 nin/mi (give or take). The one i posted is probably the highest recorded data point.

My fenix 3 HR has lots of features, and it has many lap screens & customization features too.

Also, what device do you guys use if you don't mind my asking?

And thank you both for your input. It is very helpful.

[shipo]

For some reason all I see when I click on your link is a blank screen.  😞

I use a Fitbit Surge as my only tracker.

[bcalvanese]

Hmmm... I make all my activities public so you should be able to view it.

here are the screen shots...

[FitBeforeFifty]

@bcalvanese I use a garmin forerunner. I can see your data on garminconnect but what I was referring to was real-time feedback from the device you are wearing. On my forerunner, I can adjust the fields and display all sorts of information real time. When I'm running intervals, I select pace lap average. I've got enough experience that I can run intervals mostly by feel but as a new runner it might be handy to see your lap average pace realtime for feedback.

[bcalvanese]

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@FitBeforeFifty wrote:

@bcalvanese I use a garmin forerunner. I can see your data on garminconnect but what I was referring to was real-time feedback from the device you are wearing. On my forerunner, I can adjust the fields and display all sorts of information real time. When I'm running intervals, I select pace lap average. I've got enough experience that I can run intervals mostly by feel but as a new runner it might be handy to see your lap average pace realtime for feedback.

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Ahhh, now I see what you're saying. Yes the fenix 3 HR has that too (it better for $600.00). I will set the avg lap pace field into the app i created for this, so i can monitor it real time.

thanks,

[bcalvanese]

Here is today's...

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1234392830

[bcalvanese]

Decided to up my game and do 6 miles. 1 minutes of jogging and 1.5 minutes of walking.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1240852665

Felt pretty good too.

[shipo]

Nicely done!

[bcalvanese]

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@shipo wrote:

Nicely done!

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Thank you sensei...:)