Protein intake

[philly78]

Hello all! I've recently started strength training in addition to my normal cardio routine. I'm trying to build muscle and lower my body fat percentage. I was curious about how much protein I should be eating. I did a couple protein intake calculators online and the results varied quite a bit with the high end being 169 (which seems impossible) and the low end being 56.

I'm 5'2 and weigh 118lbs and according to my aria scale my bodyfat percentage is anywhere between 24 and 26%, although I'm not sure how accurate it is. I seem to have been falling in between those two numbers fairly consistently though. I would consider myself pretty active as I workout 6 days/week and I have an active job as well.

I'm wondering if anyone has insight as to how much protein I should actually be eating? The range was pretty wide and my guess is I should probably aim for somewhere in the middle? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Mukluk4]

Anywhere from 1 to 1.5 grams per pound of body weight. If you are overweight, use your goal or ideal weight in the calculation.

[Dominique]

The range I typically see is 0.8 to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of body weight. I’m 65 kg (143 lbs) and I’ve aimed at 120 to 120 grams (about 0.8-0.9 grams per pound of body weight). I try to get most of my protein from "real" food, and top it up with whey powder if I can’t hit my target with real food.

[Dominique]

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@philly78 wrote:

I'm 5'2 and weigh 118lbs and according to my aria scale my bodyfat percentage is anywhere between 24 and 26%, although I'm not sure how accurate it is.

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You can use the photos in this link to see whether what you see in the mirror puts you close to the 25% woman, or closer to the other two (20-22% or 30%). At BMI 21.2, you probably don’t carry that much fat. As a male, I personally find the 25% and higher women more attractive than the skinnier ones . 

The 169 grams recommendation is probably from the site of a protein powder vendor... I personally wouldn’t see the point in eating that much protein. Yes, a juicy steak is nice once in a while (if you are a meat eater), but generally speaking, protein-rich food aren’t the most tasty. 

[FitBeforeFifty]

There is a very common error in protein recommendations -- people quote grams per pound of body weight when the recommendations are generally of the form grams per KG of body weight.

The minimum is 0.8 per KG of body weight. The more active you are the more protein you'll need. To gauge how much more, I typically refer people to the journal of sports medicine recommendations for athletes. They recommend 1.3 - 1.8 for athletes and 1.8 - 2.0g in heavy training periods. So, if you consider yourself an athlete and train like an athlete you might consider the higher recommendations. Most of us aren't at that level and therefore require probably only something in the 1.3x * KG range.

Dietary protein for athletes: from requirements to optimum adaptation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

As an example, I weigh 153 lbs now or 69 KG.  The minimum protein intake for me should be 0.8 * 69 = 55 grams. The athlete recommendations for me would be somewhere between 1.3x - 2.0x or 89 grams to 138 grams. At my peak training Marathon training, I typically consumed somewhere around 120 grams and had no trouble maintaining training intensity, strength and muscle.

[philly78]

Thanks for the responses! The site with the pictures was helpful. In looking at the pics, I would say I'm probably right around 25% which isn't too far off from what my Aria is giving me. I wouldn't consider myself an athlete right now. Several years ago I would have been in that category but I became ill and it took me quite some time to get well. My problem is I lost a lot of muscle when I was sick so now I'm trying to build it back up and get back into shape. 

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@FitBeforeFifty wrote:

There is a very common error in protein recommendations -- people quote grams per pound of body weight when the recommendations are generally of the form grams per KG of body weight.

The minimum is 0.8 per KG of body weight. The more active you are the more protein you'll need. To gauge how much more, I typically refer people to the journal of sports medicine recommendations for athletes. They recommend 1.3 - 1.8 for athletes and 1.8 - 2.0g in heavy training periods. So, if you consider yourself an athlete and train like an athlete you might consider the higher recommendations. Most of us aren't at that level and therefore require probably only something in the 1.3x * KG range.

Dietary protein for athletes: from requirements to optimum adaptation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

As an example, I weigh 153 lbs now or 69 KG.  The minimum protein intake for me should be 0.8 * 69 = 55 grams. The athlete recommendations for me would be somewhere between 1.3x - 2.0x or 89 grams to 138 grams. At my peak training Marathon training, I typically consumed somewhere around 120 grams and had no trouble maintaining training intensity, strength and muscle.

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This seems more reasonable than some of what I was reading. If I do the calculation using 1.3, then I come up with 70G which is seems doable. This is what I'm going to aim for and I'll see how things go. Thanks again everyone!

[JohnRi]

I can't help you with the protein too much.  I'm not there yet on my weight loss plan.  But I did want to comment about the Aria and how it works.

The Aria sends a small electrical charge through your body and gets a impedence value.  Then is uses a chart of known fat percentages and weights, to figure out your fat %. Is it going to be 100% accurate.  No, in the ballpark, yes.  That's what the percentage can change from day to day or even three readings in a row.

At 5'2", and 188, your bmi is 21.6, and a fat % at 24 is on the top of the fitness range, and 26% is at the bottom of the average range.  21 to 24% is in the fitness range, and 14 to 21 is in the athlete range.  So ideally if you really want to get very fit, you could drop your fat % 10% at the very most.  You are in the middle of the healthy range so you best bet is to drop fat and replace it with muscle while maintaining your weight.

So you are right high protein diet is what you need at this point. Here is a rough guide:

"1 gram of protein per pound of body weight (2.2 g/kg of BW) per day has been a bodybuilding rule of thumb for decades. Higher levels of protein intake, usually in the range of 1.2 – 1.5 grams per pound of body weight (2.6 – 3.3 g/kg BW) per day, are commonly recommended when “cutting” to lose fat."

Using this you should eat 141.6 to 177 grams of protein a day.  That much protein is almost certainly going to require using protein supplements like shakes.

But another guide suggest that your should keep your protein between .6 to 1.1.  Using this that's between 70.8 to 129.8.

So you're right a lot of conflicting opinions....  Good luck!

I'm sure my friend Dominque will have a suggestion on this. 

[Dominique]

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@FitBeforeFifty wrote:

There is a very common error in protein recommendations -- people quote grams per pound of body weight when the recommendations are generally of the form grams per KG of body weight. 

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You can express the recommendation either way (grams of protein per pound of body weight, or grams of protein per kilogram of body weight).

The recommendation I mentioned earlier (0.8 to 1.2 grams per pound of body weight) would become 1.8 to 2.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.

Obviously, it would make sense to use metric units for everything, but what can you do if people in North America (outside the scientific community) have no clue what their weight is in kg, or their height in cm...

[Dominique]

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@Mukluk4 wrote:

Anywhere from 1 to 1.5 grams per pound of body weight. If you are overweight, use your goal or ideal weight in the calculation.

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This post includes references to several studies showing a lesser amount would be sufficient.

[FitBeforeFifty]

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@Dominique wrote:

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The recommendation I mentioned earlier (0.8 to 1.2 grams per pound of body weight) would become 1.8 to 2.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.

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My point is that your recommendation of 0.8 to 1.2 grams is actually the recommendation per KG not per pound. Over the years the KG recommendation has been morphed into a pound recommendation without converting the grams, so it's actually incorrect.

There is no scientific recommendation of 0.8 per pound, it's 0.8 per KG. 

[Dominique]

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@FitBeforeFifty wrote:

There is no scientific recommendation of 0.8 per pound, it's 0.8 per KG. 

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Check the studies listed in the link I just mentioned: they all point to numbers around 0.8 gram per pound.

The link is "just" a blog post, but the studies are real (all from PubMed):

Tarnopolsky et al. (1992)
Walberg et al. (1988)
Tarnopolsky et al. (1988)
Lemon et al. (1992)
Hoffman et al. (2006)

[Dominique]

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@FitBeforeFifty wrote:

There is no scientific recommendation of 0.8 per pound, it's 0.8 per KG. 

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0.8 grams per pound = 1.8 grams per kg. You can choose whichever you want, they’re the same.

The study you included in your previous post suggests 1.3-1.8 grams per kg ("will maximize muscle protein synthesis"), or 1.8-2.0 grams per kg ("may be advantageous in preventing lean mass losses"), definitely not 0.8 grams per kg.

0.8 grams of protein per kg of body weight would be ridiculously low. I’m 65 kg, so if I took that, I should be eating 52 grams of protein (208 calories). In order to eat at maintenance, I need about 2800 calories, so the protein recommendation would be 208 / 2800 = 7.4% of the total. Really?

[philly78]

Well now I'm rethinking the 70grams and wondering if that might be a little low. I'm thinking I should aim for the higher end at around 96 grams. Lol. I will say that this thread has certainly been very informative and I'll be playing around with my eating habits over the next few weeks. 😄

[FitBeforeFifty]

@Dominique you are mixing and matching intensity levels, which is part of the confusion.

0.8 grams per KG is the minimum that someone sedentary requires. This is well documented and isn't controversial -- the 0.8 grams per KG is even used in some of the studies you referenced.

The upper end is variable and is based on activity level and activity type. The recommendations for athletes is where the 1.3 g per KG - 1.8 g per KG came from. Of course they didn't mention 0.8, these are recommendations for athletes not sedentary people.

Regarding the numbers for yourself, once again you are mixing a sedentary MINIMUM recommendation with an active profile -- that's not the way this works.

If you are 65Kg and you need 2800 calories to maintain your weight, you are very active, so you need something higher. I maintained my weight several years around that weight eating about 120 grams of protein which is about 1.8 grams per KG. 120 grams of protein for someone eating 2800 calories per day is about 17%, which is very reasonable.

[FitBeforeFifty]

@Dominique

I reviewed the studies you referenced and they fit within my recommendations, not yours. Here's a brief summary of each study you referenced:

Tarnopolsky et al. (1992)

Sedentary recommendation 0.86 g per KG

Strength athletes 1.7 g per KG

Walberg et al. (1988)

Defined a protein range of 0.8 g per KG to 1.6 g per KG

Tarnopolsky et al. (1988)

Demonstrated 1.06 g per KG was sufficient for bodybuilders to maintain lean body mass

Lemon et al. (1992)

This one is difficult to read but they do say that there was no enhanced muscle mass/strength gains when increasing from 1.35 g per KG to 2.62 g per KG.

Hoffman et al. (2006)

"Results were unable to show any significant evidence indicating that protein intakes above 2.0 g per KG ...Evidence to date has only shown that protein intakes between 1.6 – 1.8 g·kg·day-1 is sufficient to maintain a positive nitrogen balance"

[FitBeforeFifty]

I'm new here but I'm not new to fitness forums. I've been a regular contributor at a weight loss forum for over 4 years. I understand I haven't posted enough here to gain any kind of creditability, so it's fine for you guys to be sceptical of my comments.

For some background, protein intake is a bit of a pet peeve for me for several reasons.

1. Confusion over pounds and KG has lead to internet urban legend regarding the correct recommendations.
2. Most fitness magazines are owned by protein supplement manufacturers and have an incentive to perpetuate these myths
3. The average US citizen already over consumes protein
4. High protein recommendations lead to the consumption of supplements that are expensive, unnecessary and end up taking up precious calorie budget for someone trying to lose weight

If anyone want to posts an actual scientific recommendation that doesn't match my recommendation, I'm willing to listen. So far, I haven't seen any that aren't consistent with my references.

For those of you that are still sceptical, maybe the NCAA recommendations for their athletes might win you over:

http://www.ncaa.org/health-and-safety/nutrition-and-performance/nutrition-and-performance-resources

Protein requirements are slightly higher in both endurance (1.2-1.4 grams per kilogram body weight) and strength-training student-athletes (1.6-1.7 grams per kilogram body weight) above the typical recommended daily intake (0.8 grams per kilogram body weight). Fortunately, the higher intakes recommended for athletes is easily achieved in a well-balanced diet without the use of additional supplements.

[Dominique]

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@FitBeforeFifty wrote:

Protein requirements are slightly higher in both endurance (1.2-1.4 grams per kilogram body weight) and strength-training student-athletes (1.6-1.7 grams per kilogram body weight) above the typical recommended daily intake (0.8 grams per kilogram body weight). Fortunately, the higher intakes recommended for athletes is easily achieved in a well-balanced diet without the use of additional supplements.

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OK, you are really talking about three sets of recommendations (for protein intake): one for the general, mostly sedentary population (low protein intake), one for endurance athletes (moderate protein intake) and one for strength training athletes (high protein intake).

I don’t view myself as an athlete, whether endurance or strength-oriented, and I don’t plan to start a career as a bodybuilder, but I do strength-train five times a week and strive hard to pack some muscle. It would therefore seem logical to go for the high protein intake recommendation. And that recommendation starts at 0.8 grams per pound / 1.8 grams per kilogram of bodyweight.

Yes, I understand supplement companies have a vested interest to promote the highest possible recommendations for protein intake, but the studies that were mentioned were not financed by them. It’s pretty well established protein is the building block of muscle, though building muscle isn’t as simple as merely popping protein powder.

[FitBeforeFifty]

@Dominique You are right, I have been focusing on 3 groups but there is a continuum between those groups. I reference the athlete studies and NCAA literature because I consider this the max we would need. Most of us don't train like elite athletes but we actually consume more protein than what is recommended for those athletes. 

I think this image sums up what I'm trying to say.

For both you and I, the recommended protein consumption is probably around 1.2 grams per KG or 0.54 per lb. I prefer to eat more than that myself but that's a preferences and not a requirement. My average protein consumption for the last 3 weeks is 115 grams per day which is 0.75 per pound or 1.66 per KG. That puts me in the Elite endurance athlete category ... I should be in the moderate intensity range instead.