Runner's knee?

[1Daniel]

So I was determined to win a weekend warrior challenge and look where it got me... 😞 ha

I'm new-ish to running - I said goodbye to my old sloth ways at the start of the year. I have mostly done small runs combined with plenty of walking. I'll do a mile or two twice a day, with long walks on weekends - 10k or so quite often.

I've done a small handful of 5ks (23-28 min) without a problem too, but only 3 in total over the last while.

I did a 5k on Friday (all fine) and on Saturday (yesterday) I asked a friend if she wanted to do a 10k - something I've never done before (as said, I've only done 3 5ks). We went for it and though it was really tough (lots of hills), I managed - 55min. But my left knee in particular just randomly became very, very sore for the last couple of km. I feel it was maybe stupid to jump from short runs/the odd 5k here and there to suddenly a 10k with hills. 😞

Last night, it was extremely sore, particularly when going down the stairs.

Running for me is more just for general fitness, not toward a particular goal or anything, but I'm loathed to not do any exercise for who knows how long...but I know I need to rest it!

Today I went for a 90 minute walk, and though it was tender, it never got to the 'sore' level. I slept with a pillow to raise it, and I've been using the deep freeze spray a few times a day. Have also gotten a glucosamine supplement (not that it'll have any immediate effects but figured it wouldn't harm). Also taking ibuprofen.

It was ok for most of the day today but this evening it is feeling quite sore when walking (which wasn't the case earlier in the day), though it's nearly ibuprofen time again.

My questions are:
1 - is there anything else I should be doing to help recovery?
2 - am I ok to do these walks? During the week the walks won't be long like today's was, but I am not sure if I am helping or hurting by going on the walk.
3 - how long should I wait before I try my 'daily mile' runs again?
4 - any other tips and advice?

I am extremely nervous about any long term damage and about how to get this sorted asap.

Thanks!

[1Daniel]

Hi Corney -

Thanks for all the great advice.

My shoes are only 1-2 months old - would I notice the overpronation even after little use?

It's been tender today but not painful - no painkillers and did plenty of walking. Good sign...but a bit scared of the advice to run on Thursday haha.

There's a shoe store nearby that analyses your run to give you the right shoes and orthotics, so I think I will go there this coming weekend!

[GershonSurge]

@1Daniel,

Expensive inserts are generally a waste of money. Especially after a one time injury after known overuse. They are an easy accessory sale for shoe stores and have a high profit margin.

My advice is don't turn this into a major event. You hurt your knee a bit. It's slowly getting better. When it's recovered, start running short distances. Then don't abuse it.

[GloriousDisaste]

I had "runners knee".  It was awful.  I can tell you it was my IT band that was so tight I had to go to PT to have it stretched back to normal.  I would suggest looking at stretches.  I am a horrible runner, I never stretch before, during or after a run.  My knees pay for it every single run. 

Best of luck!

[Corney]

1Daniel: Age of the shoe is not as important as miles on the shoe. If you
do mostly walking you land with your body weight, but when you run you land
with 3 times body weight increasing the damage of any bio-mechanical
problems. If the backs of your shoes seem to be falling toward each other
then I would advise visiting a store that is staffed by runners, Take your
old shoes with you so they can analysis the wear pattern and hopefully they
can recommend the proper shoe for you. Once again ask for a shoe with a
straight last, firm heel counter and minimal cushioning. Cushioning is
great if you are heavy, but it will not give you rear foot stability which
helps counter over pronation. If your knees have any swelling then all the
muscles that go over your knee joint become partially inhibited, which
negatively affects dynamic stability of the patella. One good exercise
that strengthens the VMO, Vastus Medialis Obliquus, which provides the
Patella with dynamic stability is to set on a chair, place your other foot
on a similar height chair, and lift that leg off the chair, hold for a
count of 6-8 seconds, do 10 times at least once per day. Lastly, when
buying shoes, buy them toward the end of the day when you foot is it's
largest do to swelling. Wear 2 pairs of socks, one thin pair and one
normal pair. Good luck, I hpe this has proved helpful.

Charlie.

[1Daniel]

Update! 😞

It's still felt a bit stiff/tender the last couple days but I have been going for plenty of walks without any issues, and also no issues with stairs etc. As advised, I tried to go for a short run today. I ran 200m, walked 200m, and I managed this 3 times before it started getting a bit sore - so only 600m in total. In the afternoon at the gym I tried running on the treadmill but unfortunately had to stop after a mere 2 minutes (300m or so) as it started feeling sore. Thankfully, the pain did not stick around - as soon as I stopped, it went away and I am walking fine without pain (just that 'stiffness').

I have a follow up physio appt on Tuesday but I am feeling quite discouraged since he expected me to manage to run a mile today, but clearly didn't even come close. 😞 Makes me worried about recovery.

[cindynelson]

I actually have a problem with my knees which is bit different. I had been  competitively and non competitively since I was 11 years old. About two years ago I started experiencing swelling and pain in my knees. I went to an orthopedic specialist at the time and he said I had been running for so many years that I had worn down the cartilage in my knees. He said my knees are perfectly aligned but the problem just comes with age and sometimes from running on hard surfaces(which I have always tried to avoid). He prescribed an ansad cream which I rub on my knees after I get back from the gymn everyday.  I also use ice after I get back from the gymn. I use the Elliptical machine at the gymn and sometimes I do a brisk walk at on the treadmill and I always do resistance training. The doctor said I should not run anymore so as to preserve what is left of the cartilage in my knees. Some time I cheat and do so but I keep it at a minimum. 

[GershonSurge]

@1Daniel,

I suggest 10 reps of walking 55 seconds and jogging 5 seconds. Better to do too little than too much.

Relax, this will take a bit, but the knee will recover.

[Corney]

1Daniel: Is your P.T. a runner? Probably not, so listen to your body more
than your P.T. A good P.T. would ask you to bring your running shoes to
evaluate your running style. A good evaluation would have included an
assessment of your leg lengths, check for swelling, evaluate the muscle
tone of your VMO, Have you stand with your feet together so the medial
ankle bones are touching, then check if your medial Tibial Plateaus touch,
touch before your medial ankle bones touch, or do not touch. Also, if you
decide on new shoes go to a running store that sells only running shoes,
avoid sporting goods shops in a mall and Dicks sporting goods.

[Corney]

cindynelson: What did he do to evaluate you? How old are you? Without a
proper evaluation how can he tell you have just worn out your joint
cartilage? Rubbing on NASAID cream is a joke! !2 years of medical school
to become a Orthopedic Surgeon and all he tells you is to stop running? He
is a joke! I have never heard of wearing out the joint cartilage in such a
way that your knees remain perfectly aligned! I would advise you to listen
more to your own body than to this Orthopedic Specialist. I ran for over
25 years on concrete and asphalt 7 miles a day everyday, but finally had to
give it up due foot and Patellar problems. Now I exercise 5 days a week
using a rower 3 days, stationary bike and an elliptical one day a week, and
lift weights 2 days a week. I no longer have foot or knee problems. Good
luck!

[cindynelson]

Hi Corney,

He did did an xrays and MRI of both my knees. I also did a manual exam of both knees. Since they have a PT area, he asked me to run across the room a few times so he could see my stride.  He said my stride looked fined.  He said some people do not use their upper body as part of their stride and they land on their feet incorrectly. My using the MRI and the manual manipulation of my knees. He showed me on the xray and MRI where the parts of my knees where almost bone on bone. Since I was competive in middle distance when I was younger and I also ran cross country for longer distances, I started running a minimum 10 miles a day 7 days a week to build up endurance. I was 11 when I started and now I am well over 60 so I had been doing this for about 50 years.  I cannot take ansads by mouth because they upset my stomach. There is an ansad patch which another doctor prescribed after a auto accident. It works but is way expensive the cream is cheap has the same ingredient (diclofenac) and BELIEVE me it does work. I do not think I nor the doctor is crazy. I appreciate your input though.

I still get my 10+ miles daily but I just have to use the Elliptical and the Treadmill.

[1Daniel]

A week and a half on from the injury, today it hurts more than it did since the first day. It's been the same the last few days for the most part (tender/stiff but not sore), but over the weekend it was more tender/quite sore at times since I was cleaning a lot and that involved a lot of bending and going up and down the stairs, which I guess it didn't like. During the day it was okay today, but  at the gym, I tried cycling for 10 min as I read that cycling is fine for your knees. During the activity itself I never felt pain so I did the full 10 min, but this evening, it is probably beyond the 'stiff/tender' stage and actually at the sore stage.

For the most part, when walking over the last week, it has not been sore - other than today when there were a few pains from time to time in the evening dog walk (post-cycle). Over the last week I've done maybe 15k steps a day (all either short 20-30 min walks with the dog during the day, or at my workplace where I walk a lot...I am a teacher). It's tender/stiff, but not sore.

😞

Off to the physio again tomorrow but feeling extremely discouraged since he obviously had thought it wasn't a particularly big deal and I'd be running a mile by last Thursday, and it's now Monday and other than on the day itself 9 days ago, today is the least comfortable it has been. From having a nosey at the physio's fb, he does seem to be a runner, so I'd hope he knows what he is talking about. But no real progress yet. 😞

[GershonSurge]

@1Daniel,

You keep testing that knee before it's ready, and you may permanently injure it. I suggest taking a couple months completely off and only walk about 20 feet at a time if it gets stiff. Use the time to go to the gym and do resistance training with your upper body.

Sorry to bring bad news. Maybe it's better to listen to a guy who doesn't get major injuries than to listen to your doctor who is trying to rush the healing. 

[1Daniel]

Certainly, the bike I will avoid - only did it because I thought it was fine for knees. But the issue is, the bulk of my 15k steps I would have issue avoiding. Half of them I just do as part of my job as a primary teacher, so I am always walking around and often bending too, and nearly the other half is from dog walks my dog needs. I used to run a mile with the kids (which I now walk - but could stop altogether) and I walk 15 min to get lunch, but these are kind of the only ones I can get rid of. 😞