Using crossfit endurance for marathon training

[paulminors]

Hi everyone, 

First-time contributor to the Fitbit forum. I wanted to share a book I read recently called Unbreakable Runner. It's a great read about how you can use crossfit and low-volume + high-intensity workouts to train for long-distance runs like marathons and ultramarathons. 

I was wondering if anyone else has read the book or used the techniques to train for running events? Would love to see what you thought of the program and if it worked for you.

After I read the book I was really intrigued and there's a really good argument for why you should switch your long-distance runs for crossfit as a training method.

Cheers,

Paul

[CallieM]

Welcome to the discussion forums @paulminors!

Personally, I have completed 2 half marathons but have never done Crossfit, nor have I read the book Unbreakable Runner. 

What are the supposed benefits of trading long-distance runs for Crossfit workouts? I'd be really curious to hear from a few people who have tried this method of training. I see you wrote this post about a month ago, @paulminors - have you tried this method since then?

Looking forward to discussing further! (:

[paulminors]

Hi Callie, thanks for your reply.

I haven't tried it yet. At the moment, I'm working on developing the right running technique (pose method) which is a lot harder than it sounds. I'm having a few issues with my calfs and shins while I transition to this new style of running (which I'm told is common). The idea here is to learn to run in the most efficient way first. The main aspects of the pose method are:

1. Landing with a flat foot or slightly on the ball of your foot instead of heel striking (which is very high impact).
2. Running with a forward lean. 
3. Running with a high strike rate (cadence).
4. Pulling on the hamstrings instead of pushing off the ground (harder than it sounds).

I highly recommend you read the book as it'll explain the benefits a lot better than I can. The main argument is that you can condition your body for long distance runs without having to go out running for hours on end and risking injury (quote: "75% of runners experience an injury at some point using this method"). I have suffered with knee pains in the past and if I can train for a marathon without having to run for hours and hours every week then that's a huge win for me.

Definitely check out the book 🙂

[fitmissjen]

Hi @paulminors and welcome to the community!

I am a crossfitter and am also currently training for my firth half marathon (March 2016) I haven't read the book "Unbreakable Runner" but I am definitely going to set about doing so (sounds like good reading for the Christmas break!) 

My running has definitely improved since I started crossfit, i am alot stronger mentally and physically. Crossfit pushes me to better myself each class (Lift more, sprint harder etc) and I take the same attitude with me now when I run.

You are also right about the running technique, this is something i have had to work on also. And its NOT easy!

All the best!!

[CallieM]

Hmmm @paulminors this is really interesting. I lived with 6 other runners when I ran in college, and somehow I was the only person in our house who did not get a stress fracture from running. We were all doing between 80-100 miles per week at our max training period. Since stress fractures put a runner out of commission for months on end, it would be extremely beneficial for runners to have a training method that doesn't involve so many miles.

I have to admit though, I truly love long-distance runs. It's therapy for me and I've been really lucky with injury. For others who are more prone to injury though, this method of training seems really really great!

@fitmissjen yay, which half marathon are you training for, and in what ways have you felt stronger because of Crossfit that are directly related to running? Can you run longer or faster? Which type of runs do you notice it the most on? How long have you been simultaneously training with Crossfit and running? 

Love hearing Fitbitters's opinions and ideas, thanks so much for sharing! (:

[fitmissjen]

Hi @CallieM, I will be doing the Taranaki Mountain to Surf as part of a 2 person team (http://mountaintosurf.co.nz/) Im super excited about it!!

It has definitely helped to run longer AND faster! My PB's have been smashed since i started crossfit. I ran my fastest 5k a couple of weeks ago, in 27mins.

I have been combining running and Crossfit for about 3 months now. I go to crossfit at least 3 times per week and i run the days in between.

And, crossfit has also helped me lose alot of unwanted extra weight (11kg/24lbs) cant complain with that, its less to carry for the 21.1ks haha

[paulminors]

Thanks for sharing! I'm not big into CrossFit yet, but I've done an onramp course and will be starting properly in the new year when the CrossFit gym near me reopens.

@fitmissjen when working on your running technique, what did you find were the best ways to teach yourself about better form? I've tried recording myself on video to analyse my technique which is really helpful. Did you find any particular exercise (e.g. skipping) helped?

[paulminors]

@CallieM Yeah, I enjoy the long runs as well, but since facing an injury it's made it a lot harder to get out and train. I'm now really enjoying the CrossFit. The other great benefit is that it helps you to develop all-round flexibility and back/core strength which is really important for running form.

[Alexanderbitfit]

Hey all,

@paulminors that's an excellent read I agree but if you are reading that another book along that line as far as mobility which is the rest/recovery phase of teaching is the Kelly Starrett book http://www.readytorunbook.com/ . I choose that one as it focuses on the rehabilitation, prep for running, recovery, form for proper kinesiology. All in all great reads look forward to seeing your progress in the half marathon.

Alex

[paulminors]

Thanks for the recommendation Alex. Will definitely check it out!

[Ganguskhan]

Hey @paulminors, 

Have to say that it's seems pretty interesting. I'm a first time reader of the forum and first time responder. My coworkers and I do Insanity 2 times a week and then do runs. Speaking for myself, I've some improved results when I run. I'd be happy to check out Unbreakable Runner to get better. 

[CallieM]

@Ganguskhan welcome to the Fitbit Community! We hope to see you around our discussion boards more often.

What kind of training do you do? Insanity is so tough! (I guess that's why they call it insanity..?) Good for you! 

[MarathonChris]

Hi Paul,

I am not a fitness expert - but have run quite a bit in the past 13 years.  I have read about the Pose method of running and also Chi Running, though I have never had any formal training in either method.  I think it would be hard to correctly run those methods without someone to help you train in person.  That said, for running I have found that being relaxed, keeping your core straight, slight lean and foot strike underneath are probably all important for running form.

As for Crossfit - I have never tried crossfit but in general, cross training (doing other things outside of running) is generally a good idea to balance things out.  Good cross training ideas include core strengthening exercises and other leg builders like lunges.  I don't do these enough.  Yoga is great for building flexibility - especially if you are like me and don't spend a lot of time stretching.

Last comment - cross training is great - but can't take the place of putting the miles in on the long runs. For my training I would consider replace a mid week run with a cross training activity - perhaps two of them if it works aerobic fitness - but the long run needs to stay for sure.  If it were me, I would run a minimum of 3 days a week if I am cross training on 2 other days.  One day is for rest and the other is optional workout / cross train.  

[paulminors]

Chris, thanks for your advice. I'm well into the crossfit now and need to get back into the running. I'd like to do a pose running clinic or something to make sure I get the technique right, but there's nothing here in New Zealand that I can see 😞

[Ganguskhan]

@CallieM, 

It's a mix insanity, lifting, personal trainer (1xweek) and running. These last two weeks I've been slacking. I'm getting back on the horse tonight after work. Killed my knee and back when I was shoveling snow. 

[Heybales]

I could see Cross-fit being enough for half-marathon.

But for marathon - i'd be curious how a high intensity focus workout training the body to burn carbs could possibly help with the required training needed to burn fat better to make it through the marathon.

Or, the idea is just to do it so slow that what you got can accomplish what is needed.

Which is obviously the idea anyway, everyone that hits the wall of course went out harder than their bodies could actually handle for the right ratio of carb:fat burn as energy source. Slow down enough and the carbs will last, no matter how ill trained your body is at sparing them. Because extra stored in upper body ain't going to help the legs come race day.

As to the running style - just suggest you get some low or no-rise shoes to enhance the ability to land flat. Saucony has a great group with 4 mm rise compared to many shoes at 16-20 mm.

There are some 0 rise too with thin padding if not planning on that long of runs.

[MarathonChris]

Another thought on marathon vs half marathon training (since @Heybales brought up a good point).  For marathon training you need the long runs to train your mental endurance - pushing yourself through those final miles when the rest of you is ready to quit.  I suppose you can get some of that with cross fit or insanity (maybe the metal pushing is harder with those).

Probably more significant is the time factor for full marathon training.  A 20 mile run can take as long as 4 hours or more depending on how fast you run. I am not sure if the cross training sessions will ever push you for that long.  Some marathoners will train through 16 miles and no further, but personally, I think 26 miles is a stretch if you have never run more than 16 miles.

Good luck with your training!

[crossfitben]

Hi paulminors, great to hear that you're well into your CrossFit training.  I'm new to this forum, but I've been using my Charge HR for over a year now, and I've been doing CrossFit for a couple years.  I really enjoy it, and it also helps me get in those extra steps every night to hit 10k steps.

How are you finding your CrossFit training so far?

[AdamPow]

This is only loosely related to the topic.... but I'm incorporating P90X into my training for a triathlon. Disclaimer: I've never done a triathlon before so I have no benchmark to gauge the effectiveness of incorporating P90X. 

[mimc66]

I've dabbled in crossfit, actively run around 30mpw now and also do strength training 4x week.  I definitely think strengh training helps running - mainly in maintaining posture on long runs.  I can also see crossfit helping mentally as crossfit is really intense.  With that said, I think the risk of injury from crossfit is high (probably higher than running 30-40 mpw but I don't have any stats to back that up).  A strength training routine including compound movments (i.e. deadlifts) + one progressive l/r per week + recovery runs is a better program imo.  Throw in some speed work (it will feel like crossfit) and you are there.  At a higher level of running (3hr marathon), I would not think crossfit would be enough.