Struggling to exercise on low-carb / keto

[Daves_Not_Here]

Looking for any advice from those who have adapted to ketosis:  I have been eating very low-carb / keto during the week for weight loss, and adding carbs back in on Friday to support strenuous cardio activity (cycling with hill climbing) on Saturday and Sunday.  This works pretty well - I have plenty of energy on the weekend.  

The problem is I don't experience the supposed benefits of ketosis (energy and mental alertness) during the week, and I suspect it is because I don't stay in ketosis more than 4 days at a time.  So I've been experimenting with trying to stay in ketosis through the weekends.  So last weekend, I went out on a bike ride in the heat and nearly bonked so I pulled into a restaurant and had an emergency bowl of grits.

Today, I tried it again on low carbs -- I went out cycling for about 80 minutes.  Normally, it only takes me about 5 minutes to get warmed up to full energy.  Today, I continued to have the blahs and almost turned around after 30 minutes.  But, finally my energy kicked in and I finished strong.

Is this normal?  If I continue to stick with it, does exercising get easier?  How long does it take to get the boost of mental energy?

[Daves_Not_Here]

UPDATE 2:  OK, so I didn't drop dead.  I went out today at 3:00 PM for a 2.5 hour ride after having only eaten 600 calories and 23.5 grams of carbs following yesterday's 75 minute ride and 67 grams of carbs.  All flats with 4 stand-up climbs that Strava logged as 518 total feet.  Only water in my bottle, only one 10 minute rest halfway through.  

Results: no bonk, finished strong.  3 of 24 Strava segments were Personal Bests, but not by significant margins like yesterday.  Left thigh a little crampy afterwards, normally would eat a banana for the potassium but avoided in favor of an ice pack and bouillon for the sodium.  No other recovery eating until dinner an hour later.  I am liking it!

[Daves_Not_Here]

UPDATE 3:  Today was my official bonk-test and Wow!  60 miles and 4.5 hours on an empty stomach and no bonk.  I only got stronger through the ride, finishing up with several sustained segments over 20 mph, which is fast for me.  My only consumption was 2 bottles of 0-calorie electrolyte drink.  My only pain was a sore butt and a neck crick -- my legs felt great throughout, not even the slightest cramping.  

I had the same experience as a week ago -- it takes a good 30 minutes to become activated and feel the energy kick in.  After that, it feels like I can ride all day.  As I type this just before bedtime, I have no hunger pangs and I've only eaten 580 calories the entire day.  I'm thinking there's something to this.

[TheMonk]

Great to here your experience, I have been on low carb for almost three month and getting to know more about my body response. I play soccer for 90+ minutes twice a week and 7-8K run twice a week to supplement the diet, however the other day after 20 minute playing soccer I couldn't even walk to the side of the pitch, no energy at all, I tried to stretch and warm up my muscle to kick back but no luck. I spoke to my Dr. on the next appointment and she explained that usually on low carb diet the fat burning machine is ON at almost all times, however sometimes we need to drain all the glycogen stored in the muscle before our body start to burn fat for energy (ketosis).  Due to the ketosis process, the conversion of fat to energy ready version for muscle to use is slower than stored glycogen from carb diet. Therefore, she advised either to reduce the tempo of my exercise to give the body time for conversion or upload my previous meal with higher amount of green vegetables to store a bit glycogen from the green vegetable. I tried and it did work. Just double up your vegi 2-3 hrs before exercise or take 25-50 gm of complex carb an hour before exercise (if you doing more than 60 min heavy exercise). Still energy/power isn't at full level but I finished my workouts and no crumps next dat.

One more thing to add- stretch/foam roll your muscle longer than you used to do on regular diet. It helps to recover and reduce chance of muscle crump.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@TheMonk - thanks for the feedback.  It sounds like we've had similar experiences during the adaptation phase.  I'm starting to think that there are 2 paths to take for low-carb exercise:

1. Low-carb, not in ketosis.  In this mode, you are not in ketosis but eat low-carb to reduce insulin production and cravings.  Prior to exercise, you add carbs to charge up your glycogen stores.  During exercise, you consume sugar and carbs to avoid a bonk, eat a recovery meal, and then return back to low-carb eating.  This is pretty easy to adhere to and requires no adaptation as long as you remember to carb up before exercise.  I was in this mode up until about a month ago.
2. Ketosis.  In this mode, you eat less than 50g of carbs a day and fat is your primary energy source.  You do not eat carbs before, during or after exercise and stay in ketosis throughout.  This I've been in this mode for 2-3 weeks.  Ketosis adaptation is a challenge and requires a willingness to run at half-strength for a while.  But it seems to deliver some unique benefits:  lowered inflammation, clarity of thought, steady energy, and bonk-free exercise.

My concern with ketosis is if I can sustain it once I've hit my target weight.  I figure I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

[TheMonk]

@Daves_Not_Here
I agree with all what you said. I think you might undertand or have
experience much better than me. I shed 20 lb so far in 12 weeks and I'm
looking for another 20 more to get to 20% body fat for first time from last
15 yrs.

I would like to give you the way how i understood from my doctor. She
explain to me that exercise is good to add to the diet to keep metabolism
high and not to loose muscle during weight loss which will hinder the the
ability to burn fat in the long run. So i took my physics knowledge that
"energy is niether created or lost instead it transform from one form to
another". From this priciple if you add 25 to 50 gm of carb before start
exercise that will only gice we 20 minutes of energy until our organs
liver etc start to use fat therefore we warm up all our muscle in those few
minutes while our body is still in kitosis mode as it didnt gwt enough time
to store it as glycogen. Then fat will kick in as primary energy to
expedite the weight loss. That little carb load only is 200 cal to the
maximum and if you do an hour or more jog you spend 600+ calory which is
mostly fat as u only have 200 cal carb ib your body.

Once we spend 200 cal slow burn calory, oh ya we are back to kitosis gor
energy. But if we further load with simple sugar or items like bread or
pasta, it would be harder to switch quick for our body to fat burn mode.

Since then i used the same principle last three weeks and i still have
explosive energy to go for hours at steady pace without bong. I believe the
vegi taken before excercise burns slowly and helps the performance while
fat is in process of picking up the slag.

Let's keep shaing good exprience and improve ourselves.

[Daves_Not_Here]

Hi @TheMonk - very interesting comments from your doctor, and how you are switching between systems.  I just found a couple of interesting articles that speak to your idea:

https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2017/07/04/world-class-cyclists-special-diets-chris-froome/

http://trainright.com/should-endurance-athletes-go-keto-ketosis-ketogenic-diets-for-endurance-athlet...

[Dominique]

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@Daves_Not_Here wrote:

https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2017/07/04/world-class-cyclists-special-diets-chris-froome/

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"During races like the Tour de France or hard training sessions, he will of course go back to a higher proportion of carbs in his diet to top off his glycogen reserves and perform at his best."

-> That was the bit that reassured me endurance athletes perform optimally when consuming carbs as their main fuel!

It looks like the main reason for his low-carbing is to stay lean and light in the off-season. 

[Daves_Not_Here]

How do you guys like how I'm hijacking this thread to be my own personal journal?  Just doing my part to be a bull in the china shop of life.

Kudos and thanks to @Dominique for shaming/motivating me to exercise more during the week.  Previously, I had been exercising intensely during the weekend and recovering (OK, being lazy) during the week, focusing on losing weight.  @Dominique diplomatically suggested that maybe I should, how do they say it in Finland, "get off yer butt" and step it up on the weekdays.

So, appropriately chagrined, I set forth to incorporate exercise into my daily routine.  My morning routine is super easy: I fall out of bed and start pedaling.  After about 10 minutes, I gain consciousness and realize hey, I'm on a bike.  The final mile I max out my heart rate.  Within 20 minutes of rising, I'm back and ready to start my day.  The episode is strenuous enough to consume 100 calories but not enough to fatigue me or require any recovery.  

So far, I have 9 consecutive days and the results are (1) my weight loss has accelerated and I just cracked 200 pounds this morning (man, seeing a "1" instead of a "2" is such a boost), (2) I went out this morning to face my nemesis and hit a new Personal Best on the toughie segment, and (3) my VO2 Max went from 42 to 45.  So, much as I hate to admit it, the Finnish besserwisser was right.

Note to @SunsetRunner and @TheMonk -- I think I've fully broken the keto exercise barrier - in these 9 days, my carb intake is around 25 to 40 grams per day and I've been nowhere near a bonk.  I've completely eliminated my sweet tooth, hunger cravings, and late-night snacking.  Weight loss is not easy, it's effortless.  And I'm experiencing the other widely reported benefits -- reduced inflammation and steady "non-spiky" mental energy throughout the day.  I've been able to mitigate the downsides by eating more sodium.

[Dominique]

@Daves_Not_Here: yes, I was looking at your TrendWeight these last few days and thinking to myself you’re going to break through 200 very soon. Now it has happened:

Kudos to you! And congrats also for your improved VO2Max!

I have a question about your morning routine: do you use an exercise bike, or do you ride outdoors on the road? I have an exercise bike that my neighbours gave me (I wouldn’t have purchased one otherwise), as it had become a cloth hanger for them, but I really hate it. I only use it for three minutes to warm up prior to my weight lifting sessions, but even that feels like an eternity.

Your progress seems to defy the laws of metabolic adaptation. I guess as long as you feel great, it’s OK to carry on.

[Daves_Not_Here]

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@Dominique wrote:

I have a question about your morning routine: do you use an exercise bike, or do you ride outdoors on the road? I have an exercise bike that my neighbours gave me (I wouldn’t have purchased one otherwise), as it had become a cloth hanger for them, but I really hate it. I only use it for three minutes to warm up prior to my weight lifting sessions, but even that feels like an eternity.

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@Dominique - thanks for the your encouraging words.  I agree with you about the exercise cycle -- I can't do it -- way too boring; but, perhaps if I had a setup where I could watch TV and catch up on news, it might be better.

My routine is on the road bike -- it's all pumped up, the headlight's charged and ready to go.  I just walk out to the garage in my pajamas, change into bike clothes, do my ride, change, and walk back into the house in my pajamas.  The thing that really helps is having a warm outfit with long pants available so I'm not chilled.

As to defying metabolic laws, the way I look at it is that I don't have diet fatigue, and continue to sustain a calorie deficit, so my weight loss continues to track at 1 pound per 3,500 calories.  I can see how my BMR has decreased by about 200 calories due to losing 40 pounds, but I've been able to reduce my intake by that much so I'm still able to hit the same calorie deficit.  Pushing into ketosis has really suppressed my appetite so it's pretty easy to not overeat.  And, extreme as keto may seem, it makes me feel so good physically that it's easy to stay the course.

[Dominique]

OK, thanks for clarifying! I’m impressed with people who can exercise right after getting out of bed. I need at least a couple of hours before I can do anything physically demanding. I think it’s great you have this morning routine, if you’re spending the rest of the day sitting in an office.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@Dominique - 

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@Dominique wrote:

OK, thanks for clarifying! I’m impressed with people who can exercise right after getting out of bed. I need at least a couple of hours before I can do anything physically demanding. I think it’s great you have this morning routine, if you’re spending the rest of the day sitting in an office.

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I will admit I've figured out how to trick my lazy butt:  I don't view of it as physically demanding exercise, but rather, an indulgence. Here are the steps and my inner dialog:

• Take a nice sleepy walk out to the garage in my PJ's.  
• Get naked and kind of enjoy this step more than I probably should. 
• Pick out the right dorky bike clothes so I'm not too hot, not too cold, but just right.  "Hey, I'm Goldilocks"  
• As I'm pulling out my bike, I'm thinking, "I'm only going to ride for 15 minutes, this will be a piece of cake."
• As I'm starting to ride, I take it nice and lazy with the idea that I'll do the whole ride at 10 mph if I feel like it. 
• I've got 3 intervals - when I get to the first "fast" section, I increase my speed from 10 mph to 10.001 mph for about 30 seconds. 
• Then I drop it back down to 10 mph because, hey, it's way too early, I don't want this to feel like exercise.  
• Next interval is a little faster and longer.
• At this point, I've emerged from REM sleep and am awake.
• Final interval is at 80 to 100% effort, but only last 3 minutes.
• I soft-pedal the last quarter mile and roll back into the garage with my heart rate back down and 15 minutes from when I left.
• Bonus:  I get to get naked again.
• Walk back into the house in my PJ's, knowing there is bacon and coffee in there.

This is a pretty addictive routine because the process is a sequence of rewards and slack-cutting.  I get some intensity, burn 100-125 calories, and can go through the rest of my day without feeling any further obligation to exercise.  But, I'll typically take a lunch-time walk. 

Tagging @emili since I'm being an insufferable know it all.

[emili]

@Daves_Not_Here ha ha. Thanks. You know I enjoy your stories, opinions and theories...in the way that you enjoy getting naked in your garage 😂😂😂

[Dominique]

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@Daves_Not_Here wrote:

• Get naked and kind of enjoy this step more than I probably should. 
  [...]
• Bonus:  I get to get naked again.

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So that’s in fact the true reason why you relocated to California: you previously lived in a State populated by straight-laced bigots and the local police had arrested you too many times while you were indulging in your favorite hobby on the public thoroughfare .

[Daves_Not_Here]

@emili and @Dominique -- I must admit this morning when I was in flagrante after my ride, I thought about this post, so I had to let out a little "whoo-hoo".  The dog gave me that "what the heck are you whoo-hoo'ing about" look.

[JacquelynM]

Dave I think you would enjoy reading - "The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" by Phinney & Volek.  It explains how our bodies can function at a high level while eating low carb. It is a myth that we need carbohydrates for working out.  There is a difference between being in ketosis (usually occurs within 2 days of restricting carbs to 50 or less for most people) and keto-adapted - which requires several weeks of low carb eating.  Eating low carb for the week then trying to fuel up on carbs for a weekend event isn't as efficient as giving your body enough time to become keto-adapted. ..... a fat burning machine.  The calorie deficit doesn't come into play like on a low calorie diet either ----  since it takes more energy for your body to use fat for fuel than carbs so the old formula doesn't apply.  It's an interesting book, along with "The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" by the same authors.  There are a lot of misconceptions around a low carbohydrate lifestyle. 🙂

[Daves_Not_Here]

Thanks @JacquelynM - I'm ordering it today.  It's your fault 🙂

You touched on something I've been wondering about -- the difference in energy density between carbs and fat and how it affects weight loss.  If carbs contains 4 calories per gram and fat has 9, then 1 pound of carbs contains about 1,800 calories and 1 pound of fat has 4,100.  Fat seems to be the more energy dense and efficient fuel.

To my simple mind, it seems like you would lose weight more slowly when burning fat because of its energy density, but I suspect I am revealing my fundamental lack of understanding of the metabolic process.  I imagine I am confusing the eating of fat that enters our gut versus the burning of fat that is stored in our cells.

I've been looking for an article that will clear this up -- if you can suggest any, that would be great!

[SunsetRunner]

I agree 100 % with Jacquelyn. As a scientist and successful "Atkins" style dieter, I can only nod to the statement that calorie counting is not really important here. On the contrary depending on your individual Basal Metabolic Rate (depending on Age, Body Fat, Muscle Mass etc.), the carbohydrate intake is very critical. The very inactive fat person to enter this "game" may not be able even to eat fruits or (higher carb) vegetables such a potato and beans at the beginning. I always recommend start strict and ease into it later when effects are showing. Finding your individual balance that suits your goal is the difficult part.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@SunsetRunner and @JacquelynM - I'm curious to get your opinion on an issue I've encountered since I've attempted to become "keto-adapted" - sensitivity to heat while exercising.  (I do not yet have my copy of Phinney's book, which may address this problem).

Background:  I've never been sensitive to heat.  When I've worked out on hot humid days, I may feel wiped out afterwards, but it's nothing shade and a cold beer or three won't fix - I'm right back to my obnoxious self.  However, in the last 4 weeks since I've been in ketosis, I've been out 3 times when it has been slightly warm, and all 3 times I've become light-headed and nauseous afterwards (but no muscle cramps).  This is in spite of adding electrolytes, eating salt, and drinking lots of water.

I'm thinking I'm getting fat-adapted based on 30 days of consecutive days of cardio exercise on an empty stomach upon waking (thanks to @Dominique for the motivation), including 4 bike rides in excess of 4 hours each with no bonks.  My Strava times have been improving well, including the climbs.

My last bout of nausea was yesterday after a 3 hour ride finishing up at around 90 degrees.  I sat in the shade for an hour, didn't feel any better.  Then I had a California Roll drenched in soy sauce, and  within 15 minutes I felt fine.  I think the rice carbs and sodium did the trick.  Very interested to get your thoughts on this.

[SunsetRunner]

I am not sure they are connected with each other. Clearly on a low carb diet your top performance is hindered somewhat (otherwise all runners, short and long distance, would consume that and they don't but rather have a high carb diet).

On the other hand you describe symptoms of heat exhaustion here. I actually had very similar experiences running in the tropics at day time for more than an hour that turned me in a slow moving zombie for 3 days. Jokes aside heat exhaustion and heat stroke CAN kill you and is often driven by exercise. I do run only at night in the tropics now. @Daves_Not_Here you better read a bit about the symptoms of heat stroke and exhaustion to distinguish them and foremost try to avoid at all. Seems you prepared well with salt and water, just check your pee is pretty clear too before the exercise. Oh, that beer afterwards, I would avoid at all when you feel like this. It may push you over the edge ...