Longest plateau ever

[JRamsey]

30 years old, female, 5'5", started at 240 lbs. now I'm at 160 lbs. 

Depending on my level of activity per day my calories vary between 1600 & 2200.

So I changed my whole lifestyle in May of 2015 and have since lost 80 lbs. It's a great feeling! However, I have lost 0 lbs. since November 2016. I lift weights, do cardio, I count calories, have counted macros,  and nothing has helped me finish my weight loss. I lack 15 lbs. And can't get there. I've tried everything (literally) and nothing works. My weight and my measurements have stayed the same. Any advice? I'm determined to make 2018 the year to get out of this plateau.

[BearGoat]

Congrats on the weight loss. Impressive. Your post intrigued me, because I'm in a similar-ish boat.

Bottom Line Up Front: I recommend you change your routine. Try something new, like a sports league, swimming, yoga, etc.

I have been in a plateau for a while after cutting down 10 pounds. My previous tour in the military I had a very sporadic deployment schedule. I would kill it on deployment and come home looking and feeling awesome, but then slipped with a poor transition into my new home routine, gaining around 5-10 pounds.

Every time I went back on a deployment (usually a few months), I would deploy with different people and have to get new workout buddies that challenged me differently. The results came quickly. It is also easier to eat well on a deployment because the food generally comes from the same place and you can more easily regulate your diet (no neighbors asking if you want to get a drink after work everyday lol).

Reflecting on it now, the changes in workout routine were uncomfortable but inspiring. It got me more excited to push the daily work out. I'm looking for a new thing now too, because I have a great lifestyle, but I'd like to be down 10 pounds to my college weight. My wife and I are going to commit to some hot yoga or something to enhance the intensity. We'll see if it can push my over the top.

[JRamsey]

I do try different things. When I originally lost all of my weight I was walking 5 miles a day. Just this past June I started lifting weights 3 times a week. Also, this past September I added on HIIT running to that too and have not seen a change. I've tried yoga and can not get into it. I do swim ocassionally.

I think I may have increase what I am doing. Maybe working out twice a day? 

[Daves_Not_Here]

Welcome @JRamsey - your 80 pound loss is inspiring!  I started at 240 also, and hope to get to your 160!

I've slowed down also -- I am going to experiment with fasting based on the theory that it (1) creates a large calorie deficit (duh?), (2) increases metabolism, and (3) promotes cell autophagy. 

I figure it will either work great or kill me.  Either case, I'm losing more weight.

[JRamsey]

I hope you get to your goal weight! I want to be around 145 to 150 lbs just so I can say 1. I hit my goal and 2. I am not considered overweight by textbook standards. (I know that 2nd one is weird but all of my life I've been overweight and I want to say once that I am not)

I actually have not tried fasting. I may need to do research on it and try it. Thanks!

[Dominique]

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@Daves_Not_Herewrote:

I am going to experiment with fasting based on the theory that it (1) creates a large calorie deficit (duh?), (2) increases metabolism, and (3) promotes cell autophagy. 

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My understanding is metabolism is largely determined by energy balance (over a long enough period of time, not just intra-day, or even over a few days): eat at a surplus and your metabolism will up-regulate, eat at a deficit and it will down-regulate.

If your goal with intermittent fasting is to lose weight, i.e. be in a caloric deficit, I wonder how/why your metabolism would increase.

OTOH, I’ve seen the opposite argument: that you should eat every 2-3 hours "to keep your metabolism going". It’s equally wrong IMO. Your metabolism doesn’t care how you split your meals across the day.

As to "cell autophagy", gee, this sounds scary!

[Daves_Not_Here]

@Dominique -- you are already familiar with this, but check out Medicine Nobel for research on how cells 'eat themselves' .  for a discussion of autophagy.  Summary -- autophagy is a cellular cleansing process that occurs during our daily fasts, i.e., when we sleep, and is interrupted immediately during and after our meals.  If we graze all day until we go to sleep, we shorten this period of autophagy.  Theoretically, the process promotes health by cleansing damaged and cancerous cells, and one of the supposed benefits of intermittent fasting is that it increases the duration that autophagy occurs.  There are now many interesting articles and citations on the topic to be found.

As to increased metabolism during fasting, Jason Fung, author of The Obesity Code, is a proponent of fasting and contends that it has the effect of raising resting metabolic rate starting on Day 2.  He contrasts fasting with eating at a calorie deficit, which he contends decreases metabolic rate.

[DBibbs]

Congrats!!!  Try changing your routine for example:  Basketball, swimming, cross fit, and hiking in steep terrain.  I hope this helps.  

[SunsetRunner]

 You are simply eating at maintenance. Everyone’s metabolism is different. Those calculators that people use to determine how much they should eat are only estimates and can be off by a couple hundred calories. Even the nutrition labels can be off by 20%. There are ways to help increase fat burn without having to go into too much of a deficit. Obviously, increase your activity is one way. Eating higher amounts of protein can help. 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is recommended. People do have good outcomes with intermittent fasting as well. Also, eating higher amounts of fat can help too. Technically, eating higher amounts of fat does increase the amount of fat stored, however, it also increases the ability to burn fat. The increased stored fat is offset by being in a caloric deficit.

[JRamsey]

I have been increasing my activity. ✔

I eat on average about 130 grams of protein a day so I have some room for the to increase.

I have been trying the 16/8 fasting the past few days and I seem to like it. I notice it helps me increase my water intake so that's a plus.

As far as fat I eat an average of about 40 to 60 grams a day. I pretty comfortable with that number.

Plus, with the eating at maintenance... I've tried everything from 1200 calories a day to 2200 a day and have not seen any change in a year. So who knows. I may have to breakdown and get a personal trainer to get a food plan and workout plan going. I am determined to get to my original goal.  

[Daves_Not_Here]

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@SunsetRunnerwrote:

... Technically, eating higher amounts of fat does increase the amount of fat stored, however, it also increases the ability to burn fat. The increased stored fat is offset by being in a caloric deficit.

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@SunsetRunner -- I need to get my citations in order, but I don't think that eating higher amounts of fat necessarily increases fat storage.  I believe that insulin signals fat cells to convert and store sugar as fat, and this is the primary means by which fat is accumulated.  I could be wrong about this.  

My personal experience has been that when I eat high fat, low carbs, and almost no sugar, the fat comes off.  I'll add butter and coconut oil to my coffee and vegetables, and within 1 or 2 days, I can feel less fat when I pinch a fold of flesh on my stomach and hips (but only if I've avoided sugar and refined carbs).

I need to further educate myself on how excess blood lipids are handled, and the mechanism by which stored fat is oxidized and used for energy once glycogen is depleted.  I'm curious if someone who is not adapted to ketosis will be able to gracefully utilize fat for energy, or if they will feel lethargic and a slow bonk when in a calorie deficit.

[Dominique]

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@Daves_Not_Herewrote:

I don't think that eating higher amounts of fat necessarily increases fat storage. I believe that insulin signals fat cells to convert and store sugar as fat, and this is the primary means by which fat is accumulated. 

Permanent fat storage is caused by a caloric deficit, so you’re right it’s perfectly possible to eat a diet that’s very high in fat, yet lose body fat over time.

Insulin is often depicted as the "bad guy", for instance by people like Dr. Jason Fung. However, we must understand the context and the populations involved. Insulin is just a hormone (albeit a very important one) with legitimate purposes. In healthy subjects, it’s able to perform its jobs. When people get overfat, their sensitivity to insulin decreases, to the point it’s no longer able to do what it’s supposed to. This is why dietary approaches like LCHF/keto and intermittent fasting that reduce the involvement of insulin are popular among overweight people. Blaming insulin as the root of all evil is a bit like a heavy smoker blaming his lungs for not allowing him to breathe properly.

My personal experience has been that when I eat high fat, low carbs, and almost no sugar, the fat comes off. 

 In other words, you’ve found an sustainable approach to put you in a caloric deficit. The fat came off because of the deficit you were able to create (and sustain).

When 80% of your diet consists of fats, I understand you need to be creative when thinking where you are going to put all these fats, hence the silly "bulletproof coffee" thing. Your namesake does claim it helped boost his IQ by 20 points .  

I'm curious if someone who is not adapted to ketosis will be able to gracefully utilize fat for energy, or if they will feel lethargic and a slow bonk when in a calorie deficit. 

I’ve come across the concept of metabolic flexibility, i.e. the ability to switch from one source of fuel (carbs) to another (fats), and back. It’s mentioned in technical terms in this study on PubMed, and in a simplified form in this post on a meathead forum. I must admit that, as someone who has normal insulin sensitivity (and thus no problems using carbs as my main source of fuel), I don’t really see how I could benefit from being able to switch to fats if needed. My understanding is it requires some time and training to become "fat-adapted", as I believe you’ve found out yourself.

[Daves_Not_Here]

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@Dominiquewrote:

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Permanent fat storage is caused by a caloric deficit, so you’re right it’s perfectly possible to eat a diet that’s very high in fat, yet lose body fat over time.

Insulin is often depicted as the "bad guy", for instance by people like Dr. Jason Fung. ... Blaming insulin as the root of all evil is a bit like a heavy smoker blaming his lungs for not allowing him to breathe properly.

...  In other words, you’ve found an sustainable approach to put you in a caloric deficit. The fat came off because of the deficit you were able to create (and sustain).

...

I understand you need to be creative when thinking where you are going to put all these fats, hence the silly "bulletproof coffee" thing. Your namesake does claim it helped boost his IQ by 20 points

I don't really see how I could benefit from being able to switch to fats if needed. My understanding is it requires some time and training to become "fat-adapted", as I believe you’ve found out yourself.

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@Dominique - are you being a besserwisser, my friend?  Several clarifications -- you had mentioned,   "Permanent fat storage is caused by a caloric deficit, so you’re right it’s perfectly possible to eat a diet that’s very high in fat, yet lose body fat over time."  Did you mean to say that fat storage is depleted (or affected) by a caloric deficit?  Putting that aside, I think it's difficult to lose body fat in the presence of elevated insulin,  regardless of caloric deficit.  I believe you need both low insulin and a caloric deficit to bias weight loss towards loss of body fat.

As to the framing of insulin as a bad guy or root of all evil, I don't attribute moral qualities to chemicals; however, I do recognize their relative potencies.  The gasoline in my car plays the key role in my ability to drive from point A to B, much more so than my wiper fluid, and insulin similarly plays a highly impactful role in storing/liberating fat, regulating blood suger, driving glyogenesis, and signaling the hormones related to satiety and hunger.  Insulin is at the core of driving our metabolic processes and a key factor in the obesity, diabetes, and heart disease epidemics.  If you are not experiencing these conditions, then regulating insulin levels may be unimportant to you, but it is crucially important to those who are.

You opined, "The fat came off because of the deficit you were able to create (and sustain)."  Au contraire, mon frere.  I am making a distinction between weight loss and fat loss.  I've been stalled at 185 for the last few months so I have no calorie deficit, but I've reduced about 1/2 inch on my waist and 3/4 on my hips, and these are my last visible fat stores (do NOT mention my fat head and mouth please)

As to bulletproof coffee being silly, I'll take the bait.  I don't know if you have personally tried it (I have my own formulation), or want/need to receive it's effects, but they are palpable.  I was initially skeptical but found it delivered on two key promises: (1) to stifle my appetite by enabling me to ingest desired fats in the exact quantities I desire, without protein or carbs, and (2) to increase my mental clarity/energy by providing MCT oil that is rapidly metabolised to ketones, which cross the blood/brain barrier and provide fuel to the brain. 

As to an increase in IQ, I've had three tangible improvements:  (1) at age 58 I found my short-term memory was flagging and was unable to remember 10 digit phone numbers without writing them down.  Now, not only can I remember and dial the number, I can also recall the conference code PIN to punch in.  (2) my ability to perform mental math has improved, and (3) my ability to sustain focused attention on thinking tasks has at least tripled.  (3 times a small number is a small number).  I would think these would probably increase my performance on an IQ test.  Placebo effect?  Possibly, but if this is silliness, then I want to be a silly guy, as you well know.

As to metabolic flexability, the main benefit to me is the ability sustain my energy level and mood regardless of whether I've eaten or not.  I no longer "have" to stop to eat or hit the wall in the afternoon - meals are purely optional, and I can pretty easily choose to eat from 0 to 5,000 calories on any given day.  I think this will be valuable as I try to sustain my weight loss in the face of the possible adaptive thermogenesis effects we've been discussing.

Finally, as you mentioned, the initial adaptation was tough and took tenacity; however, to my pleasant surprise, my second adaptation after the holidays was much easier - faster, and barely any lethargy. 

Thanks for indulging me in such a long-winded reply!

[Alysan]

Congrats on the weight loss!

Busting thought that last (respective) little bit has been darned hard for me too. Now that a good portion of the weight is gone, my body, and perhaps yours too, seemingly burns less calories doing the same old exercise that I’ve been doing. I have to work harder when I work out. Whereas I used to walk and dally about on harder machines like the stair mill or summit trainer, now I have to run at 7.5-8.5 mph, and crush the cardio machines that burn the most calories per session. I have to be sweating the entire time and I keep my heart rate above 150 the entire time as well. 

Have you considered switching to high intensity cardio and weights as your daily exercise? And leaving walking to just be a leisure activity? 

I don't rely on Fitbit, or any tracker, to accurately measure calories burned through activity or BMR. They’re good numbers to work off of, sure. But I’ve had to assume that my BMR is over estimated along with the calories Fitbit thinks I burn doing exercise, NEAT, etc. So I work harder and change what I do. My body is clinging to my last 10 lbs.

Best of luck to you and again, congrats on the loss.  

[bourby]

hi. you say you are doing weights and cardio..... do you actually need to lose the weight still? if theres no jiggly bits then you might not achieve the original goal. i'd get someone elses opinion or get a body fat scan done if theres a chance that muscle might be stopping your weight loss. 

keep in mind that theres areas where jiggly bits happen unless you build them up, like under the arms.

Otherwise, you probably have your body adapted to your routine and a change might be needed.

what you originally did to burn off fat might not raise a sweat now. 

if you look good and feel good....enjoy it.

[WavyDavey]

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@JRamseywrote:

I have been increasing my activity. ✔

I eat on average about 130 grams of protein a day so I have some room for the to increase.

I have been trying the 16/8 fasting the past few days and I seem to like it. I notice it helps me increase my water intake so that's a plus.

As far as fat I eat an average of about 40 to 60 grams a day. I pretty comfortable with that number.

Plus, with the eating at maintenance... I've tried everything from 1200 calories a day to 2200 a day and have not seen any change in a year. So who knows. I may have to breakdown and get a personal trainer to get a food plan and workout plan going. I am determined to get to my original goal.  

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If you're doing strength training 3x a week and HIIT 2x a week, you should still be losing weight.

If you're not doing that, why not?

[JRamsey]

@bourby My arms and legs are just fine. I still have the jiggles in the stomach. I get that the stomach is the last and hardest place to lose but there is no give. I lift weights 3x a week and do cardio 5+ times a week. I mix it up and the cardio I do is intense usually between 30 minutes to an hour. 

I'm just completely clueless. 😕

[JRamsey]

@WavyDavey I am lifting 3x a week and hiit/cardio 5+ on most weeks. I've switched routines up and intensified them the past 4 months and no change to weight or inches. 

[WavyDavey]

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@JRamseywrote:

@WavyDavey I am lifting 3x a week and hiit/cardio 5+ on most weeks. I've switched routines up and intensified them the past 4 months and no change to weight or inches. 

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I'm speechless then. Not sure what's going on there. I'm having trouble keeping weight on with a similar routine.