Skinny or Chubby but never Fit

[SunsetRunner]

Does anyone else have this issue? If you eat clean and train consistently you end up skinny instead of toned and if you eat more casually and train consistently you end up with a layer or fat on top so that you can't see the muscles? 

I want to add here that I am 5'4 female

By clean I do not mean calorie deficient. I also don't mean low carb, fat free, or bland. I just mean a plant-based diet that is low in sugar and processed foods with ample protein. By training I mean a combo of cardio and weights and yoga.

I just cannot find that precise balance. I mean I can get stronger and perform well but I tend to look very undefined, not jiggly but just nondescript. I don't want a 6 pack or anything but I would like to see a more athletic version of myself.

[Dominique]

Looking "toned" is the combination of having enough muscle and not too much fat. It’s a bit harder to reach for females than for males, as women naturally carry a bit more fat than men. What I’ve come to realize is since it’s very hard to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, you have to keep your focus on one goal at a time, and accept there will be temporary trade-offs: you should eat at a deficit to lose fat, while lifting weights to maintain as much existing lean mass as possible, and accept you may end up a bit too skinny at the end of the cycle (that’s where I am currently); then you should eat at a surplus and lift weights to gain muscle, but the surplus must be moderate so as to minimize fat gains, and accept you may end up a bit too fat at the end of the cycle. Several iterations may be needed before you get closer to your goal.

Regarding training: yes, being consistent is important, but things like frequency, volume, the principle of progressive overload (probably the most important) also matter. If you can only train 2 x 45 minutes a week, it will take you longer to achieve the same results than someone training 5 x 90 minutes.

Regarding eating: yes, a plant-based diet can provide you with the protein you need for muscle growth, but it’s going to be more challenging as most protein found in plant are not complete. This means you will need to combine them in order to get all the essential amino acids needed for muscle protein synthesis. This also means you will need to eat more protein (than someone eating animal protein) and thus less of the other macronutrients (will play a role when in a deficit). Not advocating one type of eating over another, just saying there are trade-offs.

[SunsetRunner]

First thank you for your long and considered response!

My training schedule currently

Monday- 30 minutes yoga, around an hour of weights

Tuesday- 30 minutes yoga, around 1 hour of cardio (Hiit, plyometrics typically)

Wednesday- 30 minutes of yoga, around an hour of weights

Thursday- 1 1/2 yoga

Friday- 30 minutes of yoga, 30-50 minutes of core work

Saturday- 30 minutes of yoga, around an hour of weights

Sunday- 30 minutes of yoga, around an hour of cardio (lately I have been opting for kickboxing-style workouts on Sunday)

I try to get my 10, 000 steps too and so I am prompted to take a walk on Saturday since I don't get the steps I would get from my job and because my workout isn't as step heavy. Sometimes I do 3 times a week of cardio but usually not more because the cardio I do involves jumping. I would like to swim to spare my joints on the impact but no pool access.

I am not a vegetarian (I was from the age of 12 to 28 though), I do try to eat vegetarian as often as I can but I do eat animal proteins as well. Actually though that is a myth about the plant proteins that has been expelled by the very one who proposed the theory.

[Mukluk4]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

First thank you for your long and considered response!

My training schedule currently

Monday- 30 minutes yoga, around an hour of weights

Tuesday- 30 minutes yoga, around 1 hour of cardio (Hiit, plyometrics typically)

Wednesday- 30 minutes of yoga, around an hour of weights

Thursday- 1 1/2 yoga

Friday- 30 minutes of yoga, 30-50 minutes of core work

Saturday- 30 minutes of yoga, around an hour of weights

Sunday- 30 minutes of yoga, around an hour of cardio (lately I have been opting for kickboxing-style workouts on Sunday)

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What program are you using for weight training?  If you are just hitting a few machines you won't get to where you want to go..

If I were you I would start out with the tried and true 5x5 method.  It won't take an hour and you'll see some great gains before you have to get more complex.

[EmjayH]

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@Mukluk4 wrote:

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What program are you using for weight training?  If you are just hitting a few machines you won't get to where you want to go..

If I were you I would start out with the tried and true 5x5 method.  It won't take an hour and you'll see some great gains before you have to get more complex.

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Free weights. I'm a huge fan of free weights. Kettle bells, TRX, deadlifts and barbels. More body movement and more muscle groups targeted. Also ur weight workout becomes a cardio workout as well. Kill that whole flock of birds with one stone lol

[emili]

when do you rest? I would be exhausted on a schedule like that. But that wasn't your question. for me, I worked on weight loss- fat first. Once I got to where I wanted to be, I started lifting weights without giving up cardio- I just did a little different cardio. I boxed, I stair climbed, I walked high incline- stuff that wears the muscles as well as the heart. So now, I have arm definition. I have back definition. I have toned thighs and calves- but I am not muscly or bulky and my "guns" don't bulk out unless I hold my arm at a certain angle or lift something...I look how I always I thought I could - so I am happy with me. I am not looking to increase what I have so now I maintain what I have. I lift weights once or twice per week, I wear a weighted vest for cardio, I take at least one rest day per week and I watch what I eat (count calories) to stay on track.

[SunsetRunner]

Right now I am using P90X and I workout at home.

I don't use the machines, I prefer free weights

I have a range of weights but obviously not to the extent a gym has but right now they represent where I am upperbody wise though probably I could deadlift or squat more weight then I have. I have kettlebells, a wall ball, a med ball, a sandbag (which I love), equalizer bars for the pull ups, a barbell, a weighted vest, a Bosu Ball, A Pilates Ball, a step stool that I use for stepups and what not, And then my yoga stuff. I also have stairs at home which I find can be used too lol

With P90X I have definitely seen a strength increase, especially with the amount and type of pushups I can do.

[SunsetRunner]

I consider the yoga day my rest. For me it is sort of like therapy really both physically and spiritually. I always feel way better afterwards. I have tried to just do the no exercise rest day but then I get pinched nerves but with the yoga work I do, I find I don't get pinched nerves. I am not doing like Olympic level yoga or anything more like rehabilitative type stuff. In the mornings I usually just do Hatha yoga with a bit of postural work thrown in so it isn't a huge calorie burn but it helps me in other ways. Sometimes I will add a bit of Vinyasa or Ashtanga but it is really just about figuring out what my body needs that day to aid in recovery, improve mobility, and more than anything improve my posture since I have kyphosis (postural which I have improved tremendously)

It sounds like you have the physique I am hoping to achieve because I am not looking for cut or bulky just nicely toned. I just started to do the kickboxing I am not very coordinated but do find it fun and I will try your advice on mixing up  my cardio, I don't have a heavy bag but boxing does seem fun.

[Dominique]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

I am not looking for cut or bulky just nicely toned.

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It’s almost impossible, or at least extremely hard (especially without drugs), for a woman to become "bulky" (like a female version of Arnold). The "toned" look many women seem to aspire to will be achieved by lifting heavy (for them) weights much more easily than via bodyweight resistance training or cardio workouts.

[SunsetRunner]

I am not worried about becoming bulky at all and honestly for my body I am certain it wouldn't be possible haha I just wanted to make sure people were certain of my goal and what I meant by toned. I will try lifting heavier and see what happens 😃 I sort of had what I wanted for a short window of time, maybe a little more tone in the upper thighs. The front of my thighs and my lower abs are the hardest but I know you can't spot reduce! I seem to be having a serious problem with my stomach right now though and I need to get it looked into, I have always had stomach problems but it has gotten increasingly disabling. So my abs are suffering for it. Sometime early next year I am going in for a thyroid antibodies test and then after I get those results I am thinking of trying some sort allergy elimination diet until I figure out what it is, I am thinking of starting with gluten even though that requires the longest commitment for a turn around.

[Dominique]

Well, calve looks quite toned to me, waist thin, stomach flat, what I see is neither skinny nor chubby. Maybe you watch too many professional fitness models making a living posting pics of themselves on Instagram and you’re comparing yourself to them . 

Do what many women think will make them bulky (lift weights, and add weight to the bar over time) and you’ll end up toned.

Food allergies or intolerances definitely are an issue for many people. They can be hard to identify, as sometimes there’s a dose effect: some foods are fine when consumed in a certain amount, but no longer when a certain threshold is exceeded. You may also want to have a look at FODMAP, especially since your diet is heavily plant-based.

[Dominique]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

Actually though that is a myth about the plant proteins that has been expelled by the very one who proposed the theory.

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Just curious: what is the myth/theory about plant proteins, and who proposed/dismissed it?

From what I know, if you want to eat 100 grams of protein from items like oats, rice, beans, quinoa etc., you will have to eat a higher amount of calories than if you eat 100 grams of protein from cottage cheese, egg whites, chicken breast or other sources of lean animal protein. And the plant-based proteins won’t necessarily contain all the essential amino acids (9 of them) in the required amounts, whereas the mentioned animal protein will. 

[SunsetRunner]

This is the shape I was most happy with I am not at this stage now. I had a surgery and had to stop training for a while then several illness and now that I am healthy (except for my stomach which has been a lifetime battle) I am just really struggling to get back to that stage. Before the photo stage I had a skinny phase I was like 47 kg and that just did not look good on me. I admit though I am more critical of myself than anyone else.

I can't eat more than two eggs a day that one is known. I will look at FODMAP thanks!

[SunsetRunner]

Here is a article on the subject and it talks about the woman who first theorized it as well but there are loads of other articles. It is a very prevalent myth and has spread very far even I thought it was true at one time

https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/#gs.dSJ4Syw

[emili]

@SunsetRunner with all due respect and much love...you are nuts. You look amazing. Women would pay and do to look like you. Give yourself a break. Your stomach is more toned than mine (kids and weight loss are rough on the belly) and the rest is similar. Get on with loving your shape. 

[SunsetRunner]

Thank you for that it is very sweet. I looked like this only for a time several years ago and I am trying to get back to it. I don't look like this now! I am just really struggling to find that balance and maintenance has always been the struggle for me. 

[Daves_Not_Here]

Hi @SunsetRunner -- if I had any sense, I would not be commenting on this thread.  I know how much women appreciate it when guys barge in with their valuable opinions about women's bodies.

I think I know the look you are trying to achieve, and I believe it is actually very elusive in the real world, especially for women over 25 years old.  It seems to exist in a 24 ounce window between too thin and too heavy.

As a male who occasionally looks at women accidentally, I find the body-type you describe to be the most aesthetically appealing to my eye.  But I can watch entire college women's volleyball tournaments and, of the 500 very athletic women there, maybe 5 have that lean toned look. 495 have more of a bruiser's frame suitable for thumping guys who gawk at young women.

Worse than spouting off opinions about women's looks would be to offer advice.  Here's my advice: Step 1 get slightly too skinny; Step 2 lift heavy weights; Step 3 quick take a picture.

[Dominique]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

Here is a article on the subject and it talks about the woman who first theorized it as well but there are loads of other articles. It is a very prevalent myth and has spread very far even I thought it was true at one time

https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/#gs.dSJ4Syw 

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OK, the first thing I saw when reading that article was that the author and the site are associated with Dr. McDougall, whose views on nutrition ("the starch solution") I’m familiar with. Therefore I’m not too surprised about the claims made in the article. That a writer with no background in nutrition or human physiology says something about protein in one book, and the opposite ten years later in another book  doesn’t constitute scientific evidence that either is true or false.

The thing about protein is the minimum amount needed for health is very small (just like with the other two macronutrients), so the type of diet advocated by Dr. McDougall (high carb, mostly the starchy ones, low fat & protein, only from plants sources) is fine for someone interested in health (and who wouldn’t). For someone interested in body composition and athletic performance, however, the minimum protein requirement for health will not be optimal, and the protein profile does matter.

I’ve been self-experimenting for the past three months (more in this other topic😞 I changed both my diet and my training style. On the nutrition side, I significantly increased protein (but also veggies and fruits), and made sure it came from lean, complete sources. On the training side, I switched to a program focused on hypertrophy (you could call it "bodybuilding" style), with lower weights, but higher reps and overall volume. I’ve seen noticeable results and plan to continue with the same approach.

Bottom line: if you want to optimize your nutrition for body composition, it would probably be a good idea to eat more protein, and also to pay attention to their profile, despite of the claims made by Dr. McDougall’s associate. However, training is the primary stimulus of muscle growth, good nutrition is only supporting it.

[SunsetRunner]

The first place I heard about this was at university when I was studying nutrition. The reason I chose this article in particular was because it named the woman who originally postulated the hypothesis. I thought in knowing her name it would open up the possibility for more research if you were interested. She wasn't a medical doctor or a nutritionist either. Medical doctors btw do not have much training in nutrition and in some cases have only have had one course.

But whatever the case complete or incomplete

I don't eat one food per meal or the exact same foods everyday. I eat a very large variety of foods (I mean rice and beans just go together and all the complimentary pairs really reflect a natural way of eating I would have to go out of my way to not combine my foods) and as I said I am not a vegetarian. While I don't eat meat everyday I have never seen any recommendation to suggest you should eat animal proteins daily and certainly not at every meal. There are successful vegan bodybuilders, which should be quite easy to research. So far a Japanese diet works best for me, miso seems to help my gut and seaweed is good for the thyroid which I have problems with but I still haven't quite identified what is going on with my digestive system. My husband has suggested fat digestion could be an issue. If you gave me a plate of food my natural preference is protein, vegetables, and lastly carbs. So I don't think I eat too little protein, though excess protein is not stored by the body and comes out in the urine or else is converted to fat and that fat is usually deposited around the waist.

[Dominique]

Sure, you will find the odd vegan bodybuilder or powerlifter, just like you can find the odd marathon runner on a ketogenic diet. But these would be a very small minority / the exceptions that confirm the rule, and they would be swimming against the stream. I’m not suggesting everyone should eat a high-protein diet, or that all protein has to come from animal sources.

Anyway, if you have digestion issues, it is important you identify what types of foods cause distress and what are OK. The Japanese diet sounds great, and Japanese as a population are among the most healthy people in the world (except perhaps when they move to countries like the US or Brazil...). My own natural inclination is just the opposite as yours: I’d instinctively pick carbs, then veggies, then protein. As to fats, cheeses really are the main source I’m drawn to (must be my French heritage).