Water Weight Woes and Fat Loss

[overcomerinca]

I'm new here and hope someone can help!  There seems to be really great info on this forum.

I’ve lost about 60 pounds in the last 3 years.  I’ve been overweight my entire life and have no memory of ever being at a normal weight.  My next short goal is 206, the 100-pound mark.  But I feel like I’m running while being chained to a tree.  I can’t get there.  For the last year, I’ve struggled to get below 245.  The scale never makes sense.  It’s up/down/up/down with no real progress, even when I use those apps that give you a trend.  It bounces up/down within the same range, the occasional new low weight is just for a day before it shoots back up again.  The range never moves down.

I’m not new to exercise, been at this for 3 years.  I work hard in the gym.  I’ve worked up to 900 steps (in 6 sets) on Jacob’s Ladder, I pull 190 lb sleds, push 160 lbs on leg presses, 80 lb chest presses, 125 lb pulldowns, plus hand weights, pullups on the TRX, etc.  Not all on the same day or same muscles on back-to-back days, just a sampling.  I used to split the 4 days with 2 days cardio/2 days weights, but I’m currently doing all 4 days weights (MTThF, rest WSaSu).

Disclosure:  I have an Apple Watch 😬.  There's just such good info here, I hope I can still participate if I don't have a Fitbit 😥!  It says I burn an average of 3000 without exercise, 3100-3400 with.  I read on a fitness forum/site about it being better to lose faster so you don’t lose steam, and I'm ready to "get there already," so:

Friday 2/4 After coming through holidays and birthday celebrations, I cut my calories to 1500.  YES - I know NOW how bad that was.  If the AW is correct, that was over a 50% deficit.  I lost the first couple of weeks, from 248 to 244.  Then it started going back up, and I never lost any cms. 

Tues 3/22 - Seeing no progress, I took my calories up to 2000.  I ran to the bathroom all day, and the next morning definitely voided a lot. 

Physically - a comparison photo between 3/14 (a week BEFORE I added calories) and 3/28 (a week AFTER added calories) shows good changes.  

But the scale - I dropped a pound (247.2-246.2) between 3/22 and 3/24, but it started going up again.

 I was at 250.2 this past Wednesday morning 3/30!  I was at 248.8 this morning, so it’s coming back down, but I also haven’t worked out since Tuesday (car in shop).

Granted, Tuesday was a harder workout than usual and I was sore.  So is the weight coming down because I haven’t stressed my body with exercise the last 2 days (lowered cortisol)?  Or is it simply because the muscle repair from Tuesday’s workout is now done?  

On food/eating more…I am tracking my foods in MFP and weighing them.  Having been overweight my whole life, I’m afraid to eat more than 2000.  2500 seems like so much, and part of me is wary of trusting the Apple Watch to that calorie level, so I guess I feel like 2000 is safe.  I’m terrified of gaining from overeating now that I've got good control.  Food addiction, a real thing.

On exercise….Having always been overweight, I never had a sport.  I have fallen in love with strength training.  The exercise makes me want to track my eating, so I’ve learned that I’m not successful without diet AND exercise.  My playlist inspires me so much and makes me want to push hard, so I tend to work out hard and don’t know any other way!  LOL!

Something is going on with the water in my body, but because I don’t know what’s causing it, I don’t know what to do about it.  Am I exercising too hard?  Or are my calories still too low?  Where they need to be??  Advice???

[Glenda]

It is so great that you "have fallen in love with strength training".  Wow!!!  Why is it bad that you reduced calories to 1500.  On the TV show where the people weigh 600 pounds with Dr. Now, he puts everyone  on a 1200 calorie diet.

[Heybales]

Great job on what you've accomplished, getting new routines and habits down - ones you can hopefully enjoy and continue for rest of your life!

Curious what fitness/forum site said losing faster was better?

And since that has absolutely no context behind it - what does faster mean in your case or to you? How much per week?

I'll mention this - extremes diets make up the vast majority of the 80% of dieters that fail to reach goal weight or maintain it over 6 months.

Guess where faster is better usually falls...

Your symptoms of fluctuating weight changes sounds exactly like a body that has adapted to extreme and you are seeing the result of changing water weight because it is stressed out. Increased cortisol can cause a slow increase of 20 lbs of water weight - how many weeks of fat loss could that hide on the scale?

Of course a body that stressed has made other bad adaptations already.

When was the last time you took a purposeful diet break, despite it may appear you are in one now for awhile?

Good job on not eating bare minimum though - many people that do that don't think about the fact of the end game - that to keep losing you have to then eat less and less as you are moving around less and less body.

If already eating bare minimum - no room to adjust then.

Extreme diets under a Dr that specializes in weight loss (your GP Dr is not that by a long shot) and has you getting measured out the whazzoo to make sure you aren't harming your body is one thing, doing it on your own is another.

Your comments seem to be associating exercise with weight loss way beyond any truth. But I do appreciate that exercise inspires you to eat better - eating for the workout! Just fine as a motivation as long as you can exercise, that's it's only drawback.

Exercise is for heart health and body shaping - it can aid fat-only weight loss, it can sadly help muscle loss if done wrong in a diet. Side effects are usually water weight gain for several reasons.

Diet is for weight loss - fat-mainly if done right, sadly includes muscle loss if done extreme.

Only thing exercise does for weigh loss is cause you to burn more, so by eating less than that you may be eating enough to adhere to it.

Rather burn 2500 being active and exercising and eat 2000, or being sedentary burning 2000 and need to eat 1500. Most would opt for more.

Plus the exercise can mean there is something good to see under the fat once it's gone.

Great job weighing your food - that side of the equation sounds pretty good.

The Apple watch estimate of calorie burn for exercise using HR is like any other - ONLY valid for steady-state aerobic exercise.

Intervals, anaerobic resistance training, HR all over the place - all lead to inflated calorie burn readings.

How much of a deficit have you been attempting for how long before you hit this point of no changes?

Sounds like 1000 on paper currently, but with no 2 lbs weekly loss - that's not true.

But before this pause in loss - what was the rate of loss, and for how long did that go on?

There are ways out of this if it's what it sounds like.

But it means extremes are especially not useful - in diet or exercise.

[overcomerinca]

@Heybales 

Great job on what you've accomplished, getting new routines and habits down - ones you can hopefully enjoy and continue for rest of your life!  Thank you for your reply!!  You’re actually the one I was hoping would reach out.  I’ve been reading your posts and I really wanted your feedback.

Curious what fitness/forum site said losing faster was better?  It's on Legion Athletics, and it's an article by Michael Matthews called "Why Rapid Weight Loss is Superior to "Slow Cutting" (And How to Do It Right)

…what does faster mean in your case or to you? How much per week?

 I’d like to see 1.5-2 lbs per week.

Your comments seem to be associating exercise with weight loss way beyond any truth.  You’re absolutely right about this.  Exercise helps me stay on plan with eating.  Secondarily, because I’ve been doing them together for so long it’s very hard for me to mentally separate the two.  I keep trying to go with the “fat loss model” (weight train with deficit), because I know in my brain that it’s best to lose fat, not weight.  But in reality, my life cycle has been going something like this…

• I want to exercise with weight training since I love it and it’s supposed to be the best method for fat loss when added to deficit.
• But if I strength train, I retain water.
• Since I retain water consistently, I don’t know how much I really weigh because the scale fluctuates so wildly.
• The scale fluctuations cause fear.  Am I doing this wrong??  Or am I doing this right but it’s just going so slowly that I just don’t see it yet? 
• I try to change something to elicit a response from my body…

While weight training + deficit is the coveted path for fat loss, I have had to admit to myself that that path is just too hard for me emotionally.  Using those two methods simultaneously doesn't give me enough feedback. 

The best way to illustrate…   Imagine there's a dark cave called Deficit + Weight Training.  Many have walked through it before me and have come out the other side victorious, so they know it works, and they give advice to those who dare to try.  They know the guide in the cave, Progress, well. They know he doesn’t speak very often in there, and they feel secure on their trek despite that.  But I’m walking through it for the first time.  I keep taking one step at a time by faith, believing that I’m eventually going to see the light.  But because Progress speaks so infrequently to give any guidance, it’s too quiet in the dark and I get scared.  Am I still going the right way?  Should I try to find another way?  What if I’m wasting time by going on for days or weeks but never see any light and realize I was going the wrong way the entire time?  If Progress spoke more, I’d feel more secure and could keep going…

It’s the long periods of silence that’s scaring me.  This path just doesn’t give me enough feedback.  As much as I’d love to have the courage to keep going despite the silence, it’s too hard.  If I were someone who has come this way before or had been fit earlier in my life, I probably wouldn’t worry so much.  But I’ve come to realize that I personally need more feedback than deficit + weight training offers, and I just don't have the courage necessary to bear the long silences.

I’m really wondering if I just need to:

1. Figure out what my real weight is by halting exercise until it finally levels out or is dropping slowly (I’ve dropped from 250.2 to 246.6 since Tuesday of last week — no exercise, so water loss I’m sure).
   
   
2. Watch the scale with diet only, to make sure I’m in a calorie deficit and that the scale is reasonably moving downward.  Make tweaks as needed.  I don’t know any other way to finally nail down my deficit??
   
   
3. THEN, armed with full assurance of where my deficit needs to be to lose – without exercise muddying the water – I can determine what kind of exercise and/or intensity is best to keep the cortisol response as low as possible.
   
   
4. Maybe pull over every 8 weeks and repeat steps 1-3 if I’m retaining any water.
   
   

Your symptoms of fluctuating weight changes sounds exactly like a body that has adapted to extreme and you are seeing the result of changing water weight because it is stressed out.  Those are my thoughts exactly.  I think my overzealousness in the gym isn’t helping me…who knew???

When was the last time you took a purposeful diet break, despite it may appear you are in one now for awhile?  It was the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays.  So, really, from about the end of November until early February.  I gained a few pounds, and it was a little tough to get my food addiction back under control after relaxing my diet, but I got there!  Lol!  

The Apple watch estimate of calorie burn for exercise using HR is like any other - ONLY valid for steady-state aerobic exercise.  Intervals, anaerobic resistance training, HR all over the place - all lead to inflated calorie burn readings.  What is your thought on AW calorie readings for just daily activity, no exercise?  I consistently hit about 3000 on non-exercise days.

How much of a deficit have you been attempting for how long before you hit this point of no changes? That’s a super loaded question.   What I can say is the last time I made significant progress was February-May of last year.  My records show (I’m quite analytical…) that I was eating 2300 calories at the time.  I only lost 9 pounds in 13 weeks, and I didn’t have an AW at the time.  But you can see there’s a significant physical difference.  Should I assume that my deficit was 9x3500=31.5k  31.5k/13 weeks=2423 deficit per week; 2423/7 days=average of 346 deficit per day?   346 deficit+2300 calories consumed, meaning my TDEE was actually 2646? 

Sounds like 1000 on paper currently, but with no 2 lbs weekly loss - that's not true. The 2,000 started 3/22.  And I agree, with two thoughts.  1) The only thing I know for sure is how many calories I’m eating.  What I don’t know is what kind of deficit I have while eating 2000 calories because I'm not sure which TDEE is accurate.  If the Apple Watch is the basis for my TDEE, and it’s faulty, then I don’t know if I have a 500 deficit or 1000.  Yesterday, without exercise, it says my TDEE was 3243.  2) And as long as water is a factor, I’ll never really know my deficit because I can’t see the scale loss to do the math.  Thus, the basis for the steps I proposed above…  Here is a photo from two weeks in March.  The first photo was at 1500 calories.  The second is taken 2 weeks later and 6 days after I started 2,000.  Weight on March 14th - 247.  Weight on March 28th - 247.2.  Slight visual change, but the scale is higher.

 

But before this pause in loss - what was the rate of loss, and for how long did that go on?  That’s a pretty loaded question, too.  I type just about as fast as I think, so it's no problem for me to share, but I have had people make unkind comments about my lengthy posts in the past.  But when I don’t, I still end up sharing the details later because more details are requested (e.g., I left details out of my original post for this reason, but you ended up asking about them anyway, LOL).  But, if you really want to know, I’ll share.

There are ways out of this if it's what it sounds like.  Thank goodness!!

But it means extremes are especially not useful - in diet or exercise.  I never, ever would have thought the word “extreme” existed in reference to diet or exercise when you’re nearly 250 pounds….  I seem to have trouble finding balance.  It's either nothing at all or too much.  For the first time in my life, I have a vision in my head for where I want to be, and I actually believe I can meet my goals -- and now I'm pushing too hard to get there!!  Go figure.  LOL!!  

[Dross71]

Hi overcomerinca,

I happened upon this thread as I was researching waterweight vs fat when tracking with a smart scale.

But I wanted to throw in my 2 cents, as I have been down the road of heavy weight loss a handful of times before, and have been very successful.

I have lost 30 lbs over a 3 month period, and have also done a “supercharged” regiment that lost 10 lbs in a 2 week period.

I agree with the above comments that slower is better, because it builds a mental change, rather than a quick “sprint” that can relapse.

I wanted to comment on what I believe is a MUCH more effective workout routine that can help you achieve this. Hopefully this advice can help!

First things first, get a Fitbit. I wish so much that Apple Watch could work for effective calorie tracking and dieting (I have one of the latest Apple Watch models), but it falls short in so many ways.

I believe Apple wants very much to reap the market share from those who are not interested in the calorie counting model that Fitbit’s software runs, so they appear to have “refused” to adopt clear calorie tracking in their software. That being said, Fitbit’s app will allow you to see all calories being burned within and without a workout (without you having to add that number yourself). This, coupled with the Fitbit’s in-app food logging tool is a game changer, believe it or not.

I’d invest in the cheapest Fitbit model that comes with a Heart Rate Monitor (I use an old Charge 2).

If you find yourself moving forward with that, the next thing I’d adjust (regardless of what watch/software you’re using), is your workout type.

At the moment you’re doing a lot of anaerobic training (and your progress is awesome!!), however, anaerobic training builds muscle more than it cuts fat, which will add weight tremendously. This is a good thing for those trying to get bigger and buffer, but if you’re watching the scale and looking for weight loss as good feedback, odds are you’re not getting the feedback you want. The good news is you’re likely gaining muscle, not fat.

Muscle weighs more than fat, and has a way of burning fat, simply by existing in your body, so there is a lot of “plus side” to adding muscular mass to your physique, however given the objective you spoke of in your post, I’d say that the heavy lifting workouts are contributing more so against your goal than you’d like.

What you want to do is anything aerobic (light to no weight with high repetition). The best aerobic exercise of all in my opinion: Running. Running will cut fat while adding minimal muscle mass to your body. It’s a high-calorie burn exercise, so it doesn’t take a long workout to burn a lot. I weigh 211, and currently a 30-min run burns over 600 calories by the time my heart rate settles back down.

Running will certainly cause your body to be sore in places you never knew existed, but if you keep at it, like all workout routines, the heavy soreness goes away. Once you’re in the “swing” of running daily (I’ve done workout plans where I’ve taken breaks on weekends before), it’ll be second nature to your body, no matter if you’re a pro or just getting started.

Last thing (and this is key), get a smart scale that tracks your body fat percentage if you don’t already have one. This will also allow you to calculate your lean mass (weight without fat). Fitbit makes one called the Aria, and I’ve been using the Aria 2 for years, which syncs with the Fitbit app every time you step on it, making record keeping super convenient.

Any brand of smart scale will do, as long as you can see your percentage of body fat. This will allow you to tell if a “spike” or even a “plateau” in your weight trend is in fact due to you gaining muscle. If you’re gaining muscle, your body fat percentage will drop. This is a good thing.

If you’re counting calories already, that’s great. Keep doing it! I believe someone else in this thread mentioned that diet is the way to burn fat, instead of exercise. I’d definitely say that they must be used in combination in order to get effective results, but the heavier toll relies on dieting for sure.

That being said, if you’re working with at least a 1000-calorie deficit per day, you should see great results in a matter of months if you adjust your workouts to be primarily aerobic.

God bless, and I hope this message finds you well!

-Daniel