Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[RL7]

Like many here I have been working on trying to increase my deep sleep time.   My readings sleep graph was all over the the place for months being restless and awake more than deep sleep.  

One thing I noticed was my mind would be racing with thoughts on the nights I have slept badly.   Like constant chatter of things I needed to do, work and so on.

I've been taking melatonin, 10mg ,but even that wasn't enough to stop me from waking up here and there.  I did fall asleep faster though.  

I'm starting to get much better results with long bouts of deeper sleep by working meditation  into my schedule.   Took some time but it is having a positive effect.   

[lennythek]

Still curious what trackers you guys use that tracks deep sleep?   Color me skeptical :umbrella_with_rain_drops:️

[Gillylandhair]

I use a Charge 2.

Sent from my iPhone

[GershonSurge]

---

@lennythek wrote:

Still curious what trackers you guys use that tracks deep sleep?   Color me skeptical :umbrella_with_rain_drops:️

---

I use a Charge 2. It tracks sleep based on wrist movements. I read a report where it correlates 85% with an actual sleep lab; that is, for people for whom it works at all. Some people move their wrist often, and there is little correlation.

In my opinion, it's a curiosity. I start a workout each night when I go to bed for the night. I try to stay in bed at least six hours but seldom make it. Usually, I take a nap sometime during the day. The next day, I can look at my heart rate during the night, mostly to see if I'm starting to get overtrained.

Personally, I don't think that if a person feels rested, they should worry about how much of each kind of sleep they get. If they don't feel rested, they don't need a Fitbit to tell them.

In my opinion, it's part of a plan by the medical field to create more business for their new sleep labs. Yes, they built a new one in our local hospital.

Already been colored skeptical. 

[MrsGixxer]

My Charge 2 does and my Versa. Not all of them do. The older ones don't.

[RL7]

My Blaze and Charge 2.  Versa on the way so I can use that too.   

[Sue271]

I use charge 2 -- I agree that it is likely not as accurate as medical sleep lab but it does give you a sense of tendencies -- so if deep sleep drops a great deal one night I think about what I did that day that might have contributed -- mostly things already confirmed in medical studies (eg alcohol really wrecks my deep sleep)  if you take melatonin (which I used to but do not) and you take too much it compromises REM -- so mostly I look at how I slept and if something has changed substantially I try to think about what I did the day before and then google peer reviewed refereed medical journal articles to see if there is any correlation

[lennythek]

Thank you @Sue271
That part on too much melatonin is new to me.

When you say “peer reviews”. I assume you refer to specific trade journals ?

Len


Live long!

[DianaBreeze]

I have the Ionic. It uses a combination of motion sensing and heart rate to determine sleep stages. I would say it's accurate enough for me, moreso than my motion-only phone app.

[ParallaxView]

WavyDave, I have now tried the CBD oil mentioned on this list https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep

I did not find any deep sleep benefits, but I did find it thins your blood like aspirin.  My three year old daughter fell and hit her ear on my knee.  Ears are soft, but it gave me a horrific bruise.  I'm also developing a small bruise under my Charge HR2 band for no apparent reason.  The bottle says it's natural.  I mention that because I looked it up after the bruising problems started and found a couple of people have hemorrhaged to death after taking synthetic CBD.  There's no warning about blood thinning on the bottle.

My husband used to have a really hard time sleeping until he went on Testosterone Replacement Therapy.  I'm getting my blood work done Saturday to see where my hormone levels are, and will likely try DHEA after that and talk to my doctor about it.

For the record, I'm 46 and my 30 day sleep average is:

Awake 13%

REM 17%

Light 61%

Deep 9%

I have trouble falling asleep, and I'm usually up for about an hour in the middle of the night.

[JoshP38]

I've had a problem with deep sleep for the last two nights in particular. 45 mins last night and 38 the night before. I'm not sure how accurate the FitBit is it will tell me I've been sleeping when I have not. It usually has me getting an hour and change of deep sleep out of 9 hrs total in bed anyways. I'll have to try that Delta wave thing, Dr. Jeffery Thompson has some good ones. I've been trying kiwis a little before bed, I heard that was a thing. 

[KateyD]

Not sure how much deep sleep is needed.  But mine is so short every night, like 15-18min, that it doesn’t even show a percentage on my overall sleep.  But my REM is is always over the average area.  I feel ok most days, total sleep indicates 8-8.5 hrs.

[Khayman]

I would say that your brain is choosing what it needs most. 

It needs all parts but if you need deep sleep your brain is going in to deep sleep early on. 

If it needs rem sleep for the brain and memory functions the most it is going in to that first. 

[KingGeek]

Fab thread going on, loving everyone's input - if nothing else shows how we are all so similar and yet completely unique in our needs.

I know for sure I need at least 1 hr deep a night, otherwise I am *useless* the next day (but I do have autoimminue issues) and a major factor of me not getting the "right" sleep is I am more pain sensitive, which makes everything 10 times more difficult.

I have found a huge difference in my sleep by taking one "L-Theanine High Strength Capsules, 400 mg, 120-Count" about 1 hr to 20 minutes before I lay my head down and another when I wake up.  Evidence isn't massive, seems to have some indication of helping those with ADHD (yeah that's me too). 

I wear my Fitbit religiously (it's off to charge only) and when I forget the L-Theanine my deep sleep is significantly less.

I also now take Turmeric Curcumin with Bioperine 1500 MG 180 Vegetarian Capsules each morning and then it's all prescription items.

Exercise is the Ideal World sprung stationary bike and swimming (walking isn't always possible at any speed, although I do try to get out even if I'm having to use my wheelchair/crutches), which clearly and with overwhelming evidence is essential to getting the "right sleep".

I agree with Khayman mostly, but I add the caveat that e.g. in my case, I have several medical factors that prevent me sleeping properly and equally, no matter how healthy you are, if you wake up from your 6/7/8/9 hours and don't feel "right" you should never shy away from investigating your options.

And, of course, the aim for me is to use less prescription and replace it with things that don't come with the same cost in side-effects (even simply, taking the amount of painkillers I do, cannot be any good for my liver).

Love to all 🙂

[ParallaxView]

I disagree with Khayman that our bodies always knows what we need.  If they did, disease wouldn't exist, and we probably wouldn't be on here.  On the bright side, you probably won't get dementia because that's associated with a decline in REM https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170823185411.htm

A lack of sleep in general is associated with Alzheimer's https://www.alzheimers.net/2013-10-29/lack-of-sleep-may-cause-alzheimers/

I believe it is the cause personally.  There's all these different unrelated studies on dementia, that I believe in reality, are always related to sleep.

[sleepadvise]

There are many ways to get deep sleep. One simple tips is to take a cold shower before going to bed for sleep. This can help you a lot in getting proper sleep.

[Khayman]

 Well as an answer to Parallax I haven't said that our body knows what's best for us! I got so many examples of body wanting the wrong things. 

What I said was that our brains is taking what it needs the most. The science is all about that to when it comes to the brain. 

If you had a hard workout the brain is going to deep sleep first thing the first or the second night you sleep but if you have had a day of hard thinking and just sitting on a couch it will prioritize rem or light sleep. 

[Gillylandhair]

I wish that were true. I can walk hills after working (on my feet) all day and have a swim session and fall into bed physically exhausted and get 30 minutes deep sleep.

Sent from my iPhone

[Khayman]

 Well could it be that walking is one of the most natural things our body can do and we are built for walking all day and therefore it still chooses to repair the brain because it knows that it's not a workout to walk all day? 

I don't know, its just what sleep doctors say and I believed it. 

[Sqats4life1108]

I am the exact same as you! I was barely getting 10-30 mins of deep sleep and some nights none at all! The “sleep insights” let me know that on days I run, I seem to sleep better, so I started running 5-6 days a week and I have recently stopped smoking and noticed a HUGE change in my sleep. I average 8 hours Now And at least 1 hour of that is deep sleep. We all know how things like caffeine and nicotine can cause sleep issues but it was really cool to be able to SEE health improvements! (Also,

My RHR has gone from mid 70s down to 50s ever since I stopped smoking) thanks for sharing your story!