Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[blu-steel]

I hear that DHEA can help your sleep. It is supposed to reduce cortisol extremely well as DHEA turns into testosterone when it breaks down. 

[RichVargas]

What id DHEA?

[RichVargas]

What is DHEA?

Moderator's edit: personal info removed 

[craigk4]

A couple of things that worked for me are Magnesium Oil on my feet, thighs and forearms before going to bed. Second is PreBiotica Inulin before bed. 

I have noticed that these are most effective when I restrict caffeine after the second half of the day. I also found that wearing blue filtering glasses for a couple of hours before bedtime to get natural melatonin production going helps. The glasses definitely help if you spend time in front of a TV, Computer, tablet or phone in the hours leading up to bed time. 

[craigk4]

@JenWood The problem with alcohol before sleeping is it acts like a sedative and just shuts off parts of the brain that are supposed to be active during sleep. So, you aren't getting the full benefits you are supposed to get. Alcohol also inhibits REM sleep. 

Try something called Magnesium oil, a topical spray on that boosts magnesium levels in the body without causing loose bowels that is common with oral magnesium. I've also been truing PreBiotica Inulin before bedtime. These both seem to increase deep sleep with no negative side effects. 

Finally, neither work well if I drink coffee after lunch time. Caffeine has a half life of five to seven hours, so it is best to have a cup or two early and then pick up the water bottle for the rest of the day. 

[Bh63]

I always get under 20 mins deep sleep, have I got a problem

[GaDawgs]

It appears we all just have different deep sleep counts and our bodies just
act differently and have different needs.

[Letmein]

Very interesting thread which has confirmed my issue. Stress, or the impact on stress on making me mentally hyperactive. Like many, I'm a text book example of good practice, good weight, regular exercise, go to bed at the same time every day, only a few cups of teas in the morning, healthy eating (for the most part), no computer an hour before sleep, good sleeping arrangement, a 1 hour peaceful walk in the evening, a bath before bed etc... and yet terrible deep sleep that makes me wake up feeling dizzy and shattered all the time. Like most, I've tried to analyse it, tried to come up with tangible solutions, all this coming to know effect and I've come to the acceptance that ironically, the more I try to come up with solution, the more I activate my mind and the worse is my resulting sleep.

Like many, I used to sleep like a log no matter what until the pre-menaupose hit me. Now, I just can't seem to shut my brain. It is always on the go, thinking non stop, even when I try not to think, I find myself thinking about not thinking!! There are only two things that will me sleep, stopping to work as this is the main cause of my over active brain, or somehow make mindfulness work for me. The former is not an option, so need to give the latter a good chance. I did try and it did help a bit, but learning to meditate, ie. seriously reduce thinking is hard work and demand a lot of commitment, especially when we have years of bad habit to break. I had to use thinking to protect myself and push myself forward. It's hard to tell myself now that this overthinking is now destroying me!! 

My husband is not a thinker. He is very intelligent but only uses it when he needs it. He is a natural observer and his deep sleep is amazing. I would bet that artists are overall better sleepers than scientists!

[WavyDavey]

Great post, @Letmein, I think you're onto something.

I highly recommend meditation. But don't think of it as trying to control or stop thoughts. That's just a thought also. It's better to acknowledge the accumulation of thought, and give it time to unwind itself. And by time, I'm talking months. 🙂

We have a discussion going about meditation you may find interesting:

https://community.fitbit.com/t5/Live-Mindfully/Who-here-meditates/td-p/1883524

[Letmein]

Thanks WavyDavey. You're right, I have a lot to learn about meditation and its benefits. I totally appreciate that the process will take some time to undo what has been my natural self-preserving way for most of my life. 

I'm looking forward to reading the other thread. Meditation is such a midfield, it feel very foreign at the moment. Saying that, I did the 'concentrating on body parts and respiration' exercise as I went to bed last night and although I woke up feeling dreadful (terrible tinnitus and dizziness), to my surprise, I had 1h15mns of deep sleep which I've only had a handful of times in the last year, so I do think I'm into something indeed!

[lennythek]

where do you guys get the information on time in deep sleep?    I am not seeing that on the fitbit site?

Len

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@skf2121 wrote:

If you check under your sleep "graph" (where it shows your awake/rem/lite/deep cycles, there are three tabs:
Today/30 day avg/benchmark  not finding this??
Under benchmark, it shows what averages are for a person your age.  I used to stress about the time I spent in deep sleep cycles until I saw that I was above average for someone my age 🙂

---

[Franchipane]

Thanks a lot for your tips - this is really very helpfull for me.

[ParallaxView]

You sound like me.  I can't help, but think I might have Fibromyalgia, and maybe the actual cause of it is just poor sleep quality https://www.webmd.com/fibromyalgia/default.htm

[ParallaxView]

https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep

I have had some luck with taking Zinc, Magnesium L-Threonate, a melioration that contains B6,  and valerian before bed.  The best night was an hour and 30 minutes of deep sleep.  The results are not consistent though.  All it takes is some physical activity or my husband snoring to reduce my deep sleep to 10 minutes.

At any rate, I'm wondering if the sex suggestion in the above article works for men, and not for women.  It will put my husband right to sleep, but keep me awake for an extra 30 or 40 minutes.

GABA and 5HTP don't appear to be making a difference.

I will try CBD oil since I live in Colorado right now.

My husband and I tried Lunesta years ago.  We both became extremely paranoid.  I felt like I was losing it.  My husband thought people at work were talking about him, even though he knew that was ridiculous from a logical perspective.  I would not recommend it. 

I'm rather frustrated because there is one substance that will give you deep sleep, but the FDA has restricted its use to people with Narcolepsy.  This is because it can be used as a date rape drug.  I would think there would be ways to make it bitter and add a dye to it, so you could tell if a drink has been tampered with.  I've also read alcohol is actually the date rape drug of choice and is a factor in 95% of reported cases, but no one would put restrictions on alcohol.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-08-16/news/0008160337_1_eve-van-cauter-sleep-hgh

[DianaBreeze]

I second you on that sex suggestion. It works fine for my husband but will keep me up. I actually thought that was a common knowledge difference between men and women, but I suppose not. If anyone is interested, in addition to my Fitbit, I also use an app called SleepCycle that allows me to track various daytime and bedtime activities to see which ones affect my quality of sleep and how. It can't tell me about deep sleep, but it at least got me started in good habits. I found out that eating too late, having more than one cup of coffee a day, drinking any alcohol, or taking afternoon naps all decreased my sleep quality, while eating a particularly light dinner, reading before I go to sleep, meditating, and straight up getting more than 7 hours of sleep all increased it. I don't like that you have to pay for all the features, but to me it was worth it to narrow down the things that worked and the things that didn't.

[lennythek]

"@@skf2121 wrote:

If you check under your sleep "graph" (where it shows your awake/rem/lite/deep cycles, there are three tabs:
Today/30 day avg/benchmark  not finding this??
Under benchmark, it shows what averages are for a person your age.  I used to stress about the time I spent in deep sleep cycles until I saw that I was above average for someone my age"

wondering if this only shows up on certain trackers?   I use a One and a Surge - I do not see the tabs you mentioned.

Len

[Gillylandhair]

Yes, I have a Charge 2. I have given up wearing it at night as every time I moved it lit up!

Sent from my iPhone

[ParallaxView]

I wanted to say I think taking DHEA at night is an excellent suggestion. I will see if it helps with deep sleep, but I’m waiting to have some blood work done. I don’t want to make any changes before then that could change my hormone levels.

I read an article that says as you get older cortisol levels don't go down at night, and for women this is particularly bad. If women have a stressful day our cortisol is more likely to stay high, where a man's will go back down. The same article said the high cortisol will drive down night time DHEA. I was trying to find the article to share, but I haven't found it yet. I did find an article saying high cortisol causes bone loss https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28379565 I read an article once that said bone loss is associated with dementia, but they don’t know why. Probably because you aren’t getting deep sleep. I wish GHB would get more attention because it works for clearing Alzheimer’s in mice https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-016-0205-y I’m assuming the bone loss is due to a lack of deep sleep, and that’s why it all ties together.

Women with borderline personality disorder have high morning DHEA and low DHEA at night. Low cortisol in the morning and high cortisol at night. I don’t know if this would apply to men, since it looks like they only studied women, but I assume it would https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395606001695

A couple of times I’ve been told to take cortisol in the morning because I have low morning cortisol https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-synergy-adrenal-stress-combat This is bovine adrenal gland. I assume the doctor was negligent for not checking my evening DHEA level.  So what I’m getting at, is people can try to artificially drive their cortisol and DHEA levels for morning and evening if they are reversed. If you want blood work to support these efforts, a doctor who’s a member of A4M (the American Association of Anti Aging Medicine) might be helpful, or someone who specializes in functional and integrative medicine, like Chris Kresser.

[ParallaxView]

You can turn that off the automatic display that comes up when you move by going to settings in the app on your phone.  Go into the Charge 2 and disable Quck View.

[Gillylandhair]

Aha! Thank you so much!

Sent from my iPhone