Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[LaylaA]

Sleep is an interesting one and is something I've struggled with on and off for many years. I just read a fascinating article on insomnia https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/sep/14/finally-a-cure-for-insomnia

The crux of the article is this:

We all have different amounts of time that we need to sleep. It's a myth that we need 8 hours: some need 5, some 6, some 9 or 10.

Once we work out how much sleep we need through keeping a sleep diary (when we fall asleep and when we wake), we need to stick to that time, every day. This might mean going to bed at 1am every night.

If we can't fall asleep, we get up within 15 mins and go to another room and do something relaxing. Then try again, and repeat until we fall asleep.

The bedroom is purely for sleep (and sex), nothing else. It needs to be a place that we associate with sleep and sleep only.

I know your post was about deep sleep but I hope this article is of some use. I found it very interesting. I just wish there wasn't a 2 year waiting list to get to see the experts at a pioneering clinic in London.

[SFaltafb]

 Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed comments. I too wanted to get more deep sleep. In the  process of trying to get more deep sleep, I may have discovered a bug in the way Fitbit tracks sleep. What occurred has made me question the accuracy of the data on sleep stages.

When I edited the sleep blog as to wake up time because I noticed it had an earlier time than I’d really awakened, the earlier portion of the night changed. In other words, when I changed the time I woke up by a few minutes, the tracker changed the early part of the night as well as the waking time. This should not happen. It suddenly went from 49 minutes of deep sleep to 1:17 minutes of deep sleep.  I was able to replicate this and took a few screenshots. I changed the  wake up time from 8:56 to 9:12 back to 8:56 and then 9:12. Initially, when I changed it from 8:56 to 9:12 it gave me several additional times of deep sleep. After I did this three times it stayed with the lesser time. 

 If it can change like this, how do we know what it is telling us is accurate? I could have simply accepted the original graph with 49 minutes, or I could have simply accepted the later one with an hour and 17 minutes. If I thought I had slept an hour and 17 minutes in deep sleep and never questioned what time I woke up, I would have been happy. If I thought I only got 49 minutes of deep sleep I would’ve been less happy. However If it can change like this, it’s possible that the whole thing is not accurate.

I hope someone from Fitbit staff who understands the product in depth will comment. How can we be certain that the data is accurate, given this? We are trusting the accuracy of what it tells us about our sleep, but this suggests problems in how it works. 

I look forward to understanding more.

[HenryPearson]

I fully agree with this phrase: "We all have different amounts of time that we need to sleep. It's what we need 8 hours: some need 5, some 6, some 9 or 10. " I read a lot of articles related to sleep, but I need to receive information from the body, as it is different for everyone. One guy advised trying a sleep tracker to find out the sleep cycle. Sleep tracker tracked my sleep, and in my free time I found out in which phase of sleep I sleep the worst. I read reviews on https://happysleepyhead.com/best-sleep-tracker/ about sleep trackers. There are many ways to improve your sleep, but the sleep tracker helped me analyze my dreams, and after the analysis I think why I did not get enough sleep and why my sleep was bad this night.

[SFaltafb]

More odd data:

 Today when I awakened, the app initially read that I had awakened at 4:10 AM. When I looked at it, it showed very little deep sleep. I took a screenshot. Then,  it finally synced and showed that I actually awakened at 9:01, but the important thing is that it showed a completely different pattern during the initial hours of sleep. Instead of mostly light sleep, now that same period of sleep that earlier had very few minutes of deep sleep had about an hour and a half of deep sleep. 

If the data and the analysis are accurate, how can what took place during the early hours of sleep be different depending upon the time I awakened in the morning?

Again, I hope someone knowledgeable from Fitbit will read my two posts. I would like to have confidence in the data Fitbit is giving.

[ForecasterJason]

@SFaltafb I have also noticed something similar before. Unfortunately, I don't think they have a reasonable explanation for how the time spent in a given stage can vary that much from changing the awake time.

And yes, it does make me question the legitimacy of the results. I think this has been an issue ever since they rolled out the sleep stage tracking well over a year ago.

[rockpool]

SFaltafb, I (and others) have experienced the same thing on many occasions and posted about it several times, but so far no one from Fitbit has offered an explanation.

I enjoy my Fitbit a lot for many features, but this issue has certainly made me doubt the value of the sleep tracking.

[ParallaxView]

A 20 to 30 minute variation in deep sleep is quite a bit. I would suggest if you are like me and it was reporting 10 to 20 minutes of total deep sleep, you know you have a problem.

As a side note, this blog post on getting deep sleep is kind of interesting https://blog.bulletproof.com/sleep-hacking-part-3-falling-asleep-fast-with-biochemistry/

The article is from 2011. It's my understanding the FDA will now only allow GHB (induces deep sleep) to be prescribed for narcolepsy. Are there places outside the US where a doctor can prescribe it for other sleep disorders?

[SFaltafb]

The point of my post was not the amount of deep sleep. The point is the variation in what Fitbit states was deep sleep, depending on what time one awakens. I cannot see how what happens in the first three hours of sleep would change based on what time one awakens. This seems to bring into question the accuracy of the way they analyze the data.

Sent from my iPhone

[rockpool]

Sfaltafb, this is exactly my point too. The issue with the edit sleep function has certainly made me doubt the accuracy of the whole sleep recording. Previously (I haven't bothered for some time), whenever I used the function to edit the falling asleep or wake up time, the entire recording for the whole night changed, dramatically. Deep sleep, REM sleep, light sleep, awake times, everything. At one point I even created a topic on the issue, but got no explanation. 

This looks like a serious bug to me.

I feel it is time for Fitbit to offer an explanation. 

[Letmein]

A friend of mine has had the same issue with her fitbit not recognising when she really falls asleep and this affecting the recording of her deep sleep. I've had none of these issues with my alta which incredibly accurate despite reading without moving much before falling asleep. 

I've done so much analysis of my sleep and I think I've reached the point of having a very good understanding, solution is proving more problematic! 

Lack of proper deep sleep is having a significant impact on my life. I now know that greeting 1:30 DS a night will mean waking up feeling normal and will lead to a symptom free, efficient day. 1 hour and I don't feel great but manage just accumulating mental tiredness. Less than an hour and I wake up feeling lightheaded, dizzy, unbalanced and will struggle through the day. In the 14 months I've had the fitbit, I only had a handful maybe two of 1:30 deep sleep. 

What aspects of life impact on it? How buzzing/relaxed my brain has been. For instance I've noticed my worse night of the week is almost always Fridays to saturdays and best Sundays to Mondays. What cause my brain to over function is over activity and rushing. 

Now I know all this, changing it is very difficult. I already follow every recommendations, gave up caffeine, exercise every day, long walks in the evenings, drinking a lot of water, going to bed same time etc... 

I work FT and although I have changed job to a less demanding one but still manager and can't cut hours. I have many friends who I try to see regularly, two kids who demand my time, a husband who is demanding too and a busy physically active life. I'm also going through the menopause. 

So here I am, having to accept to slow down if I want better sleep. Its a vicious circle 🙂 

[ljmarxen]

Donna, unless you are in a sleep lab I wouldn't trust the accuracy. It is supposed to be an estimation but is not perfect. If it really concerns you I would go to a sleep doctor and bring it up, as I am sure there are modifications you can make or supplements to take to improve it. I don't think worrying is helpful and I would not be worried about dementia or other chronic diseases. You will be just fine.

[ParallaxView]

I have been staying asleep a little better lately.  I just started taking krill oil because of this article https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/omega-3-dha-in-phospholipid-form-may-bypass-faulty-brain-tr...

There's a connection between Alzheimer's and deep sleep https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/01/04/460620606/lack-of-deep-sleep-may-set-the-stage-...

Sleep problems may be an early indicator of Alzheimer's, so I'm looking at what treats deep sleep as possibly preventing Alzheimer's.  

I've also been taking a small dose of over the counter lithium orotate for about a month https://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/articles-1/2016/2/22/lithium-the-cinderella-story-about-a-mine...

It hha defiantly improved my mood.

I do think the two most important things I've discovered that improve deep sleep are wearing ear plugs and putting up light blocking curtains.  

[2000190521790]

Been trying to find Prebiotica since seeing this suggested twice. I've found prebiotics, and something under the name that is a sugar substitute. Where can I find this? 

Thanx

[writergal28]

I've noticed that I only get deep sleep early on.  I wonder if it's because I get up to use the bathroom too much during the night (usually twice).  My deep sleep is way below average for my age, while light is above.  REM tends to hover around average. 

[Letmein]

It is normal and expected to have most of our deep sleep early in our sleep so no worry there. 

Light sleep is a sign that we are not letting our brain rest as it should usually because we are of a nature to rush, overthinking, worry etc... Its bad habit that's come to bite us! 

[billupsj]

I’ve benefitted from this discussion regarding deep sleep, so here’s a lengthy report on my use of the Fitbit and Apple Watch during an in-clinic overnight sleep study with an EEG.

I purchased the Alta HR on Labor Day weekend to track my deep sleep.   I had been suffering from excessive daytime sleepiness, and while my doc ran tests to rule out medical problems (none, thank goodness) I experimented with ways to increase my deep sleep (exercise, diet, other science-based techniques like warm baths, etc..)

Wearing my Fitbit, I had three sensational nights of deep sleep of 14%-16%, and a handful of good nights of 9%-14%, but my median was 5% no matter how nun-like my life. I say “sensational” and “good” because I felt it, even before checking the app. Curious fact: All my best night’s sleep were preceded by vigorous exercise, but fully 50% of the days that I exercised vigorously I still had depressingly low deep sleep of 0%-5% without any other explanation for the low percentage. Which tells me that I must vigorously exercise for adequate deep sleep, but that exercise is no guarantee.

My Fitbit comparators (65 yr old woman) ranged from 8%-16%. My 5% median was concerning to me in light of the growing research studies linking the brain’s amyloid proteins (associated with Alzheimer’s) to low levels of deep sleep. See, for example, https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/8/2104/3933862?searchresult=1

I carry one copy of the APEO 4 gene.

I tracked for six weeks, and when I went in for my overnight in-clinic sleep study I wore both my Fitbit and my newly acquired Apple Watch. Both were – sadly -- off on the deep sleep measure, although the Fitbit was closer. It reported 14% of deep sleep while the EEG recorded 5%. The Apple Watch app reported 38%!! Sorry, not possible. The Fitbit was nearly on the mark for REM – it reported 27% while the EEG said 25%.   Again, the Apple Watch app was further off than the Fitbit – it said 20%.

I just started using a CPAP (not for apnea; per my sleep study, I have low nighttime oxygen for some unknown reason, and the CPAP is preferred over nighttime supplemental oxygen). The Fitbit records my deep sleep with the CPAP as consistently 18%. I am glad that the nuisance of the CPAP has resulted in increased deep sleep. It helps allay my Alzheimer’s concerns. Maybe an EEG would not agree with Fitbit’s 18% in deep sleep, but it has definitely increased, and I have enough confidence in the Fitbit to at least use it to keep track of any inconsistencies or changes to my sleep patterns.

I’m also going to keep following science news about deep sleep. A good summary of the tested methods to increase deep sleep can be heard in a recent podcast with a scientist at the University of Pittsburgh. https://blog.humanos.me/can-enhancing-slow-wave-sleep-boost-your-brain-function/. I’ve tried nearly everything she described except for the new product that she alluded to. (Philips has a headband that is designed to improve slow-wave sleep through acoustic enhancement which studies show are effective; see https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2017/april/pink-noise-sound-enhance-deep-sleep-memory/, but the device is too spendy and early in it’s technology for my taste.)

Thank you to everyone who has posted on this topic.

[rockpool]

Thank you, billupsj, for lots of valuable info and interesting links!

It was very interesting to learn that you had such good result from the CPAP. In this country (Sweden) it is not allowed to buy a CPAP without a doctor's prescription. I tried to get one, and pay for it myself, because I thought it would help me sleep better (I do snore a lot and wake myself up lots of times during the night) but was told that it was a medical device to treat sleep apnea, and that it would be as wrong to let me buy one  without signs of apnea as to let me buy beta blockers without a medical diagnosis.

Billupsj, I would love to hear an update about your experience with the CPAP in a few weeks!

[billupsj]

I will post an update in a few weeks.  I also had to have a doctor's prescription, although it was to address low oxygen rather than apnea.  And it does totally take care of the snoring!

[ParallaxView]

Try looking for them on eBay. I got a tense unit that way.

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

[RowdyRiley]

While I can see wanting to save money, you really ought to have a sleep
study, understand what's really happening with your sleep, and have a
doctor's prescription. Even if you found and bought one at an estate sale,
there are a number of settings and if you don't know what you're doing
messing with them you may do more harm than good. This is why they require
a prescription.