Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[Ray94903]

I tried 5 mg of Melatonin and my dreams were interesting but just too vivid; I tried 2 mg and it was not enough. So I changed to 3 mg and it seems to be work just fine. As you say, everybody is different. -Ray

[WilsonFitbit]

Hello everyone! @Ray94903, I'm glad to see you around and thanks for sharing your experience! 😁

While this has helped for you, please don't prescribe yourself a sleep aid or supplement. Instead, talk to your doctor to see if a sleep aid is a good option for you. 😉

I hope you can continue having a good night's sleep 😴💤

See you around. 

[ParallaxView]

The problem is doctors are kind of worthless.  I suppose you are posting that to legally cover Google.  I had a doctor who would prescribe any crazy medicine under the sun, as long as it was FDA approved.  The current doctor I have has one prescribed hormone replacement therapy to help with my insomnia.  That was only a partial fix.  

There are doctors who will prescribe Ambien.  Mine will not, but it doesn't help with deep sleep from what I understand.

As a side note, if people take Ambien and it wakes them up, it might be treating brain damage.  It can treat blunt force trauma brain injuries, stroke, and has helped people with MS:

Stilnox AKA Ambien AKA Zolpidem:

https://youtu.be/ppwqMbcIuls

https://youtu.be/4kWKvDj3jD4

https://youtu.be/J4CG8DYkp9A

https://youtu.be/KTFicgrVk0w

Moderator edit: word choice

[ParallaxView]

In Dale Bredesen's book The End of Alzheimer's, he says taking too much melatonin can cause you to go to sleep and then wake up in the middle of the night, not being able to go back to sleep.

What's worked for me best lately, is going to bed earlier, and at the same time every night.  I also found out I have a really weird problem.  I went to an Allergist/Immunologist, and one of the first things he asked me is if I can wear earrings.  I said "No, not even surgical steel."  It turns out I'm allergic to nickel, and it can make you really sick if you eat it.  It's mainly a female problem, but if a man notices an allergy to piercings or he can't wear a metal watch band, he might have it too.

A nickel allergy can cause the same symptoms as Fibromyalgia or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome http://rebelytics.ca/nickelinfoods.html

My diet primarily consisted of high nickel foods http://www.filedropper.com/nickelrichfoods

Almonds

Chickpeas (hummus)

Chocolate

Tomato Sauce

Lentils

Oatmeal

Peanuts

Walnuts

All the worst food you can eat for my allergy.  Most vegetation is now off limits to me except for cucumbers, celery.  I also had to stop using stainless steel to cook with.

After being on an all meat and dairy diet for almost a month now (didn't give up coffee though), my daily headaches have gone away, and I get an hour to an 1 1/2 deep sleep.  This may also explain why prednisone actually gave me great sleep.  The only treatment for a nickel allergy (type 4 allergy) is steroids or avoidance.  The allergist told me steroids are not a long term option.

[Ray94903]

Parallax View - thanks for the reference to Dale Bredesen's book The End of Alzheimers. I notice that the book talks about "reversing decline." It the first I've heard of any treatment being able to "reverse" ALZ decline. I know that there are treatments to slow down the process but as far as I know, ALZ is progressive and irreversable. Does Bredesen have any credibility in the field? I genuinely want to know before I invest any time in his work. Thx -Ray

[ParallaxView]

Yes, Dr. Dale Bredesen does claim he has reversed Alzheimer's in his patients.  He's a neurologist.  What he claims in his book is there are multiple causes for neuron death.  If you can address each contributing factor, you can reverse Alzheimer's  Bredesen lists the contributing factors in his book

the end of alzheimer's by dale bredesen - - Biblio.com

Here's his Twitter account

Dr. Dale Bredesen (@DrDaleBredesen) / Twitter 

Here's an interview Dale Bredesen did with Dr. Dale Bredesen on Preventing and Reversing Alzheimer's Disease - YouTube

I think he's not getting a lot of media attention because there's no expensive pharmaceutical involved in the treatment.  It's mainly inconvenient things, like changing your diet, but there's a very long list of things you can do to improve the health of your brain.  Sauna use is one of them.

I think it applies to this forum because fighting brain inflammation will improve your sleep, and Bredesen has great advice on sleeping better.

[Ray94903]

>I think he's not getting a lot of media attention because there's no expensive pharmaceutical involved in the treatment.
That's a really good point. I guess that I'm still very sceptical because if this really works, wouldn't everybody be doing it? It's such a terrible disease, why at least wouldn't the forums be full of it? Still, you can't argue with better nutrition, less reliance on processed food, and so on. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention. I will definitely look into it. -Ray

[SunsetRunner]

I agree Ray.  I follow a lot of Dr. B's advice. Nutrition just isn't sexy enough for the media to bother about. 

[SunsetRunner]

This is so interesting to me. I have daily migraines and am on triptan drugs. All of those foods you mentioned are triggers for me. I am on Day 17 of migraines today and had the worst one ever this morning. I am wondering if OURA rings have nickel in them as I am waking at 5 (but manage to get 2 - 3 hours deep sleep (which is huge) and 1.5 hours REM. I tend to sleep longer when I forget to put my ring back on after washing.  Hmm, lots to ponder here!

[OhioLiz]

The amount of deep sleep you get may be related to genetics. 23 and Me,
the genetic testing site, indicates that a couple of genes influence how
much deep sleep you get.

I find that the quality of my sleep is influenced by regular aerobic
exercise and yoga, as well as a healthy diet.

[ParallaxView]

With a nickel allergy, if you wear nickel it gives you a rash, or causes swelling.  

I only just found out eating it is a problem, but that can cause diarrhea, eczema, chronic fatigue symptoms, fibromyalgia symptoms.  

It wasn't such an issue in my 30s, but at 49, I'm starting to go down hill.  Hopefully clearing up this issue will help.

[Ray94903]

Maybe that was the problem with some of the early Fitbit watchstraps a few years ago. I remember a lot of people complaining about rashes. -Ray

[ParallaxView]

I suspect you are right.  If I wear surgical steel earrings, my ear lobes start to swell, turn red, get hot and itch.  I gave up on them in my late teens.  They may have thought they would be safe with surgical steel.

[ParallaxView]

We have probably all heard this already, but here's a clip on blue light from screens messing up sleep

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JL4bIDriJdo

I like to play this on the TV at night, but it does mean the screen is on https://youtu.be/iDzL4T6YXxE

[Linrab]

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your experiences and ideas.  I too have trouble getting deep sleep and for that matter, sleeping through the night. I plan on reading Shawn's book, Sleep Smarter.

[WilsonFitbit]

Hi everyone! @Linrab, let me give you a warm welcome to our Community!

I agree with you, I think we have all been benefited by reading these amazing experiences! 😊 

On a side note, it's good to see you around in the Community for the first time. Don't forget to step by here to say hi to all the other Community members: Come say hi & introduce yourself.

See you around!

[Letmein]

Hello Deepsleepers or not!

I was wondering wether you guys are finding no pattern, even on a day to day basis with how much deep sleep they are getting?

At the moment, I can fine day with 1h20mns, the next will be 30mns and there was absurdly no difference to my days. I've tried to identify everything but can't pinpoint anything.

The latest I tbiufh of was hydration, especially in the hours before going to sleep and indeed, it seemed to send me to more deep sleep the first few days, but it now seems to make no difference.

Also wonder if anyone is finding that their most deep sleep is more towards the middle of the night than shortly after falling asleep as is more expected.

[Alliemcdougal]

I have not registered any deep sleep or rem sleep for almost 10 days. I am wondering if the watch is not working or is just that I have the same problem with insomnia and a snorer which requires I get up me to another room. It also logs me as sleep I g while in meditation during day but I am quite awake

[Bobcat931]

Alliemcdougal,

First, I have found Fitbit Charge to be very accurate when it comes to sleep. I can tell when I have had a night of repeating light sleep to REM and back with little deep sleep.

I think if it’s recording your meditation as sleep that says your meditation is very effective. I would be happy with that.

[OhioLiz]

Are you sleeping sitting up or laying down? My experience is that my Fitbit smart watch usually does not record sleep if I am sitting up in a chair. One option is to try sleeping on a separate bed or couch starting at the beginning of the night and see what happens.