Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[Mothra53]

This is really interesting. Just yesterday I did my first “sunbath”. What
do your readings say about how to minimize skin cancer risk?

[ParallaxView]

According to Ray Kurzweil's book TRANSCEND, to sun bathe in the morning or evening when the UV index is low.

[ParallaxView]

I would like to mention using the nasal spray Fluticasone Propionate(Glucocorticoid) reduces or completely eliminates deep sleep for me.  

Taking magnesium glycinate really helps accompanied by zinc glycinate.  If I run out of zinc glycinate, my deep sleep starts to decline.  

[Mothra53]

Thanks!

[SpideysMom]

The rule of thumb for safe sun exposure is spend half the time it takes before you to begin to burn. So, if you turn pink after 40 mins, spend 20 mins in the sun. The more skin you expose, the more vitamin D you will synthesize. Sunscreen will limit/prevent vitamin D synthesis. The articles I've read recommend sun exposure between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. several times per week. Do your own research on the subject, but the articles I've read say we've gone overboard in our fear of skin cancer and many people get too little sun exposure. A huge percentage of Americans have vitamin D deficiency. Vitamin D is not really a vitamin - it's a hormone that we synthesize during sun exposure. Because there is very little vitamin D in food, some foods (whole milk, cereals) are fortified with it, but it's not enough for our daily needs without sun exposure. Vitamin D supplements are a good alternative, but not everybody absorbs them properly and they don't produce the same range of positive effects as the sun, including regulating serotonin and melatonin which impact sleep and mood. Here are a few article on the subject:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nomanazish/2018/02/28/why-sunlight-is-actually-good-for-you/#674f2f665c...

https://www.lifesavvy.com/27862/morning-sunlight-is-the-key-to-a-good-nights-sleep/

https://philmaffetone.com/sun-and-brain/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290997/ 

https://health.usnews.com/wellness/articles/2018-07-18/how-much-time-in-the-sun-do-you-need-for-vita...

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/15050-vitamin-d--vitamin-d-deficiency 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/vitamin-d-and-your-health-breaking-old-rules-raising-...

[Letmein]

I haven't noticed any positive effect of vit D on my sleep pattern but definitely agree with the importance of vit D for health reasons.

 I walk about 1:30mns a day on average and therefore always assumed  I was getting plenty of Vit D. I was wrong. A blood test in February showed a deficiency, despite some week holiday in the Caribbean in late November. 

I learnt that exposure of the face only is not enough hence requirement if supplement if not living in a warm winter area. 

I now take supplement from October to April. I believed from very early that there was a link between low vit D and Covid death. There were later on a number of scientific papers suggesting the link. 

Say, no impact on my deep sleep, or not enough to record.

[SpideysMom]

Thanks for sharing your experience with sun exposure and vitamin D. Like you, I used to assume that because I walked and hiked regularly, I was getting enough vitamin D. Same problem as you - I was mostly covered up except for my face and arms. But blood tests showed otherwise - I was deficient. I wanted to catch up as quickly as possible, but I can't take high doses of vitamin D - they make my insomnia worse, which isn't uncommon. So, for the past 4 weeks I've made time each day when there's sun at midday to stretch out on a lawn chair in a bathing suit and take sun for 30-40 mins. In two weeks I will take another blood test and I'm hoping to be very solidly in the normal range.

I will have to start taking a supplement sometime in October too, but I'm hoping I can just take a low-dose supplement. But from what I've read, supplements don't have the same effect on your circadian rhythm and sleep as sun exposure. Articles I've read say not to take vitamin D supplements in the evening because it can disrupt sleep although supplements taken early in the day seem to improve sleep. My experience with sun exposure was that it had a huge positive impact on my sleep right away. I'll never forget that first day of laying in the sun and the feeling of wellbeing all day after it, followed by the best night's sleep I'd had in years.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm against supplements - they're very important and lots of research is coming out about how many of us are vitamin D deficient and how important vitamin D is, including for preventing severe Covid infection, so thanks for pointing that out. Here are a couple of very encouraging articles on that topic:

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200925/low-vitamin-d-levels-tied-to-higher-odds-for-severe-covid#1

https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/the-first-clinical-trial-to-support-vitamin-d-therapy-for-cov...

[Mothra53]

I can’t wait to hear how your sun-bathing sessions affect your levels of
vitamin D. Please keep us posted!

Like you, I’ve just started a full-body sun bathing regimen and love how it
makes me feel. I was a sun worshipper back in the day, and I realize now
how much I’ve missed it...

[SpideysMom]

Will do! My insomnia has improved dramatically as my vitamin deficiencies have improved. Last night I slept 7:23 hrs - a record for me. My REM was 30% and my deep sleep was 19%. 

For others who have been struggling with insomnia, I recommend getting a couple of blood tests for vitamin deficiencies. Vitamin B12, folate and vitamin D (which isn't really a vitamin) are not easy to get from food and in the case of B12 not easy to convert into a usable form if you take tablet-type supplements because you need a protein called intrinsic factor (IF) to process it in the stomach and many people don't have sufficient IF as they age.

I was deficient in vitamin B12, folate and vitamin D as well as severely iron deficient (which doesn't affect sleep) when I began my journey to better health and sleep. In my case, there's a reason for that - I lived overseas for years in countries where there were food and water quality issues at times, so I often had an upset stomach. But I've been back in the U.S. for more than 10 years and had no idea that I never caught up from these nutritional deficiencies. People with IBS and celiac disease often have the same vitamin deficiencies. And some people just have a hard time absorbing certain nutrients from food. Plus, vitamin D is meant to be synthesized from the sun - food doesn't contain enough vitamin D for our bodies.

If you want to get your vitamin levels tested, you don't need to see a doctor or spend a lot of money. Private labs like Quest Diagnostics and Ulta Labs - the same labs that process doctors tests - offer blood testing to the public too. You order them a la carte and pay for them online, then show up at the lab with your paperwork. Testing takes 5 mins. Two days later you should have results. I just checked and Ulta Labs charges $67 for a B12, folate and vitamin D panel, plus $8 for the blood draw. If you want to spread the cost out over time, consider getting a B12 test for $24 or a vitamin D test $39. (I don't know if these prices are the same in all states.) A large 2011 study showed 41.6% of Americans are vitamin D deficient. I know, I know - if you're a hammer everything looks like a nail and I'm definitely a hammer, but it was such a shock to me that I was so nutritionally deficient despite eating a very healthy diet for many years.

I don't take any sleep aid medications or supplements other than vitamin B12 sublingual (500 mcg) in the morning and sun exposure for vitamin D. I go to bed early (10:30), sleep in a very cool room (64-66 degrees) and have black out blinds on my windows. That's it. I don't drink alcohol or caffeine. Such a difference from a year ago when I was sleeping 4-5 hours and was doing all the same things but I had multiple vitamin deficiencies.

Here's an article about the effect of vitamin deficiencies on sleep. Note: most people get plenty of vitamin E, C, and B6 from food. Also, some vitamins are fat soluble (B6, D, E) and getting too much can be toxic.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleep-newzzz/201905/5-ways-vitamin-deficiencies-can-impact-y...

[Mothra53]

This is fascinating. I know I had my Dr. measure my D levels at one point.
I save all my blood panels...I’m going to check them out for the vitamins
you mention.

[2000190521790]

Tried calling Lab Corp with regard to getting the B12 and D panel blood work, but they insist you need a script.

Called 3 Quest labs and none answer phones or have their voicemail set up.

[SpideysMom]

Try going to ultalabtests.com. Then type the name of the test you want in the search bar, for example "b12". Choose which version of the test you want and follow the prompts to make sure there's a lab in your area. If there isn't, try questdirect.questdiagnostics.com. Quest's pricing tends to be higher than Ulta Labs.

You need to order the test and pay for it online. Your test results will be sent to the email address you register with. Then print the paperwork and take it to the lab location you selected. You can call the local lab to set up an appointment or just do a walk-in. I usually go when they open in morning and never have to wait more than 5 mins.

Hope that helps! 

[ponchik]

Deep sleep is very important!

[ponchik]

Deep sleep is very important, especially if you want to be active and productive during the working day. I have often had sleep problems lately, resulting in nervous breakdowns and conflicts at work. My doctor advised me to try some CBD drugs. On the internet, I found charlotte's web CBD gummies review and read about its properties. It turns out that they have a positive effect on sleep and on the physical condition of the body as a whole. I have been using CBD gummies for a week now and I feel much better.

[TINMAN60]

Melatonin? 

[Kashanu]

I was constantly having trouble sleeping. It is very difficult for me to fall asleep, it takes me at least two hours before I can fall asleep. No matter how tired I am, it takes me at least two hours to fall asleep. I went to the doctor and he prescribed sleeping pills for me, but you can't take it every night, you need to take a break and take it a week after a week. I started looking for another more effective remedy and for me it became white vein kratom. I didn’t try cannabis or cbd, as almost no one of my friends takes them. After I started using kratom, I started falling asleep literally 15 minutes after I went to bed. I can finally feel like a man!

[Letmein]

After four years of monitoring my sleep with the Fitbit, with an average of 45mns deep sleep in a 7:30-8 hours night, I, for the first time had 1:55 hours of DS on Saturday night! My record before that was 1:20 mns.

Did I do anything different? Nope. The only element that made a change is that Friday night was a traumatic one as my young dog was very ill and I had to look after her during the night worrying. By Saturday afternoon, she was back to her old self and I was overwhelmed with relief.

This led me to think that poor deep sleep is probably a symptom of anxiety. The problem is anxiety is difficult to define. I don't come across as an anxious person and would qualify myself as such but the more I inform myself the more I realise that I do have a tendency for anxiety expressed in a need to constantly control everything and with it never fully letting go.

I'm doing more meditation work to learn to let go and find myself in a mindset I don't think I've ever been before in my 50 years. I think this is the key to me improving my DS for good. This one night (and still managed 1h20mns the next) has given me hope that it can be achieved. 

[Prospector]

1h 55min is a HUGE amount of deep sleep. What percentage of your sleep was it and how does it compare vs the benchmark for your peers? What sleep score did you get? How much time did you spend in REM? I have read that excess REM may be linked to depression.

I agree anxiety is bad for deep sleep - I had very poor deep sleep earlier in the year when I suffered anxiety and depression. Linked to high cortisol / low melatonin levels. I find a correlation between good levels of deep sleep and activity level / intensity, though strangely there seems to be a 24h delay sometimes. High levels of activity may contribute to physical tiredness but also act as a stress-buster, so could be a two-for-one benefit.

My best ever deep sleep was 1h 35min, 21% of my sleep vs. a benchmark of 7-13%. More typically I hit 50-75 min. (11-16%), but with some nights inexplicably as low as 16 min. I always spend less time awake (10%) than the benchmark for my peers (15-31%), but seem to make up for that with longer time in REM (28% vs 12-22%). I’m certainly not depressed or anxious at the moment.

Good that your dog recovered 🐶 

[Moneylogue]

I slept for exactly 61/2 last night with an 84 score. Unfortunately, my deep sleep is only 35 minutes. Must be because I was worried about something before I sleep. 

[ParallaxView]

Watch out for CBD if you have any problems with thin blood or bruising.  It thins your blood just like aspirin.  For me indica is better than CBD it's self.

I had some amazing sleep recently, and I think it's because I had been prescribed prednisone, which is similar to cortisol.  I have low cortisol.  Low cortisol causes insomnia Low Cortisol Symptoms - Health Hearty  If you have had a nervous breakdown, it's worth looking into.  My previous doctor, used to test for cortisol, but my current doctor won't.  I'm going to look for a new doctor.  There are saliva tests that test for both DHEA and cortisol, to see if your levels regulate correctly throughout the day https://saliva-cortisol.squarespace.com/shop