Balancing Aerobic and Strength training

[gmurtie]

I am having a problem balancing aerobic vs. strength training.  I have always been a runner/jogger and it is my favorite way to workout.  It seems to give me the biggest bang for the buck in my workout budget. However I also like weightlifting and particularly the 5x5 Powerlifting workout I see mentioned on this site.  Problem is when I do the powerlifting routine it really makes me feel stiff when I run.  I wonder if anyone else has similar issues and has found a workable solution for them.  I would love any advice on strength vs. aerobic exercise in general.  Thanks, George

[josephz2va]

I generally do a daily routine with an AM Strength and PM Cardio. That gets both in daily. My plan has isolated muscle group strength training (chest, back, legs, shoulders, and arms - with ab exercises each day). And in the evening, I have to work on my cardio to reach the 3100 calories burned goal.

[Heybales · Accepted solution]

Aerobic training up to a certain level of intensity doesn't interfere with lifting if you just do a well thought out schedule.

If you like the running to be intense, and you want the lifting to really give best results, then you gotta pick a priority.

Jack of all trades master of none. Except it's worse with mixing competing priorities.

The lifting for increasing strength and muscle mass only works if you overload the muscles with weight with a rep range below 20.

If you don't overload the muscle, there is no need for it to improve, to grow stronger, to build more.

Do a lifting workout with tired muscles, you can't overload with weight.

You can probably well picture this with running.

Do a 5 min calm warmup jog, and then sprint all out for 1 min. You reached a certain pace and covered certain distance.

Do a 5 mile fast run, and then sprint all out for 1 min. Do you have any hope of reaching the same speed and distance covered? Of course not.

The additional issues with lifting - if you did a good lifting workout on day 1, and actually caused micro-tears that even need to be repaired, and repaired stronger, then repair can take 36-48 hrs.

You do a hard cardio session on day 2 that requires it's own repair, on muscles trying to repair - you just killed the repair to some level.

In addition, the hard cardio session wasn't likely as hard as it could have been either, again, tired muscles.

But now you just wasted the lifting workout because you didn't get full repair from it.

And now if you try to lift again on the 3 day, how effective is that routine going to be.

Since recovery is slower in a diet, that makes it worse.

So depending on age, newness, amount of deficit, those workouts turning in to basically wasted time compared to what it could be could take couple weeks to several. But it will happen, and during that time the workouts still aren't doing what they could be.

So you gotta decide what is priority now. You could do 2 days of lifting, with slow jogging supporting the lifting during that time, and then 1-2 days of running at level you might enjoy more.

Usually the level of cardio that is felt not to mess up recovery, is the Active Recovery HR zone, it's not such a hard load to require repair, but the increased blood flow and warmup aids repair. That HR zone has sadly been given recently the fad name fat-burning zone. So it does have it's place in your workout routine.

www.calculatenow.biz/sport/heart.php?

Many find that they have to jog so slow, they'd rather just walk for the time. But even there, if you do jog, your pace usually comes up after a bit, even at lower HR, indicating improved aerobic function.

What kind of schedule do you have available?

[gmurtie]

Thanks for the reply. I was afraid that exactly what you said was going to be the response I got. I really don't have enough time in my day to be wasting workouts. Maybe I can focus on different priorities at different times of year. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me. George

[SunsetRunner]

All about optimizing for what works for you, your schedule and your goals.

Might split the difference and see how it goes for a month and consider just adding in some bodyweight exercises pre/post run?  Can you do 100 pushups?  How many pull ups?  Chair squats?  Dips? Burpees?  etc.?  Bring in plyometric effect to your overall whole-body workout.

Partly depends on your objectives.  Looking for just gym-size-look-at-me-in-the-mirror or functional-getting-ready-to-run-Spartan-race strength/endurance.  The plyo suggestions above combined with the running and the right diet can get you a lean/ripped physique and not require spending 60mins in the gym followed by a 30-60min run.

I don't have time for that either.  haha!. 

[Heybales · Accepted solution]

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@gmurtie wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I was afraid that exactly what you said was going to be the response I got. I really don't have enough time in my day to be wasting workouts. Maybe I can focus on different priorities at different times of year. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me. George

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That is indeed an excellent way of doing it.

Might suggest though that you do at least 2 x weekly upper body routine to retain muscle mass there.

Since it's not needed for running no problems of wasted workouts, and if you don't use it for anything else, it will be lost in a diet.

Then come the winter months with perhaps shorter runs anyway, focus on lifting and minor running to improve aerobic base only, and 3 seasons for running and upper lifting only.

[Nick17]

With strength training, especially a 5x5 program, you are training your type II muscle fibers (fast twitch) and using an anaerobic (glycogen) pathway for fuel to your muscles.  Running, on the other hand, trains your type I (slow twitch, endurance) muscle fibers and uses an aerobic (oxygen) pathway for fuel.

Most trainers, as well as organizations such as the CDC, ACSM, etc., recommend that you do strength, cardio, and flexibility training throughout the week.

5x5 strength routines really tax the body for one, and don't mix well with aerobic activity, despite different muscle fiber types being trained.  This is why you see alot of people who do 5x5, Starting Strength, or 5/3/1 doing alot of sprint work or High Intensity Interval Training.  Sprints and HIIT use the anaerobic pathway but will get the heart beating as well as burn fat.  For me, what works is a moderate intensity of strength training combined with a moderate intensity cardio program.  If you go too far either way with one of them, the other will  suffer.

You can strength train twice a week and still get results/benefits which will also allow for better recovery time. 

[SunsetRunner]

+100  sounds a bit like @Nick17 has some actual training vs general emperical experience based suggestions.....cool!

[sonia_trainer]

Hi there,

I noticed your issue was resolved but I want to chime in cause I'm a nationally certified personal trainer and weight management specialist and maybe I can shed some light on details most people are unaware of.  

Sounds like you like jogging, just be aware that going at it over 45 min has a "diminishing returns" effect on the body.  At that point, you stop burning fat and start burning muscle and that's no good.  On the flip side, weight lifting builds muscle and if you target them on all planes (sagittal, vertical, horizontal) and assuming you have good form, you will gain strength, improve your metabolism and also reap the functional benefits as you age. 

What I do in my own workouts is like the best of both worlds, aka: weight lifting with interval aerobics, aka: "high intensity interval resistance training."  I warm up aerobically for about 15 min. (stepper, rower, etc.) and then I lift weights starting with my legs (hardest-best effort) then moving on to arms and finishing with core and stretches.  

I tackle each body part with exercises in all planes to avoid imbalances so for example, when I do arms I do bicep curls, deltoid front lifts, side lifts, tricep lifts and then raises targeting the latissimus dorsi, etc. This targets the arms/shoulder at 360 degrees.  However, in between sets I do jumping jacks or push ups, anything that's aerobic and for just a  minute or so to elevate my heart rate.  Then, I wait til my heart rate goes back down (a minute or so) and start lifting again.  And in between leg sets I do mountain climbers or step ups on a bench, etc. and as timed above.  So with this type of hybrid training you're working out anaerobically and aerobically at the same time.  If short on time, you can split your sets and do arms one day, legs another and still add the aerobic component in between sets.  

As far as the stiffness you feel after weight lifting, that means you probably did it right and caused microtears in the muscle.  I know it may seem weird but you have to tear down the muscle to rebuld it stronger and get that "muscle cut" look.  But the key is that you MUST allow it to heal before tackling the muscle again so you need REST in between lifting sessions or else you'll undo all the good by over-traning the muscle.  

Having said all this, I don't know your level of fitness or health issues (if any) so just consider this "food for thought."  And if you still want to job one day and train the next, make sure to leave one day of rest in between and that'll take care of the soreness and still allow your muscles to rebuild.

Good luck!

[Heybales]

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@sonia_trainer wrote:

Hi there,

I noticed your issue was resolved but I want to chime in cause I'm a nationally certified personal trainer and weight management specialist and maybe I can shed some light on details most people are unaware of.  

Sounds like you like jogging, just be aware that going at it over 45 min has a "diminishing returns" effect on the body.  At that point, you stop burning fat and start burning muscle and that's no good.  

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That last comment totally discredits anything else you say unless you can produce a study showing that happens.

That is absolute nonsense.

How could marathoners ever make it only burning muscle and no fat after 45 min. Tour de France riders would have no muscle at the end of the 3 weeks either.

Sorry, just gotta call bull when I see it. Unless you meant something else entirely different or very specific and just worded it horribly, but since you didn't clarify regarding intensity or anything in your comment, I gotta jump on the outlandish comments.

[sonia_trainer]

It's not bull, it's science, namely physiology 101. There's plenty of
decades of empirical scientific evidence about this basic human energy
system and since you need proof then YOU take your own time to look it up,
something you should have done before ignorantly calling something "bull"
when you obviously know nothing about it. Google keyword: gluconeogenesis.
And afterwards, no need to email me to apologize. You're welcome!

[gmurtie]

I think the point being made here is that there are many different opinions of what works and what doesn't. In the fitness and the nutrition categories what works for one person doesn't always work for the other person. We all have different body types. We all have different goals we are trying to attain. Scientific paradigms change all the time. In the end there is far more that we don't know than we do know. I appreciate the input that I have always gotten from the community posts. Let's all try and get along.

[Heybales]

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@sonia_trainer wrote:
It's not bull, it's science, namely physiology 101. There's plenty of
decades of empirical scientific evidence about this basic human energy
system and since you need proof then YOU take your own time to look it up,
something you should have done before ignorantly calling something "bull"
when you obviously know nothing about it. Google keyword: gluconeogenesis.
And afterwards, no need to email me to apologize. You're welcome!

---

You need to look that word up again as reminder of what it means, because you forgot since you took your test. I didn't.

For exercise that was being talked about, that process is when there is NO more glucose stores and amino acids (protein) is being converted to glucose because your level of energy use still requires them. Which is basically anything above sleeping.

If your liver stores are low and your blood sugar is trying to be kept where the body wants it, then the already broken down and available amino acids can be used for that few teaspoons of sugar in your blood that is desired.

And while that is happening - ALL the normal energy use in the muscle is going on - namely burning available fat and the carbs that are stored there.

Now, if you want to talk about exercising hard for 2 plus hours and hitting "the wall" of recreational marathoners going too quick or cyclist and the "bonk" - now you are talking about running out of glucose in the muscle stores, and while there is plenty of fat to burn, you'd have to go a whole lot slower for that energy source to be used almost fully. And guess what happens when you hit the wall or bonk, you slow way down. Because now that gluconegenis process is too slow to provide enough carbs for much more than basic level of intensity, but there is still plenty of fat burning going on.

It has NOTHING to do with fat burning stopping - that's not even part of the equation of it.

Well, except if you take in excess protein that cannot be used, gluconeogenesis converts it to glucose, if that is still excess because all stores are topped off and unneeded for immediate energy needs, then it's converted to fat through de novo lipogenesis.

So your claim as stated is what was totally incorrect and I wanted to inform everyone was bull. Fat burning stops. Good grief. No wonder myths keep going on about things when you hear trainers at gym making claims they have no clue about (happens at my gym) and online forums and commercials (don't skip a meal or your body goes in to starvation mode).

Studies in this reference for anyone that wants to read more to confirm the truth.

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Substrates.html

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/61/4/968S.abstract

"When people walk at low intensity after fasting, the energy needed is provided mostly by oxidation of plasma fatty acids. As exercise intensity increases (eg, to moderate running), plasma fatty acid turnover does not increase and the additional energy is obtained by utilization of muscle glycogen, blood glucose, and intramuscular triglyceride. Further increases in exercise intensity are fueled mostly by increases in muscle glycogen utilization with some additional increase in blood glucose oxidation. Muscle glycogen and blood glucose contribute equally to carbohydrate energy production over 2-3 h of moderate-intensity exercise; fatigue develops when these substrates are depleted. Active people can deplete muscle glycogen with 30-60 min of high intensity, intermittent exercise."

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/course/ens304/public_html/section1/SubstrateUtilization.htm

"Carbohydrate utilization decreases and fat utilization increases over time. This is due to decreased muscle glycogen content which can become depleted within 2-4 hr of continuous exercise depending on the intensity. Even though working muscles are taking up and using more glucose, blood [glucose] remains fairly constant because the liver is breaking down more liver glycogen and releasing the glucose into the blood. However, with time, liver glycogen becomes depleted causing reduced blood [glucose] and fatigue."

And for research for anyone that is more interested in gaining facts - the search words are "substrate utilization exercise". Which will get in to above process too and when it's eventually needed.

[Heybales]

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@gmurtie wrote:
I think the point being made here is that there are many different opinions of what works and what doesn't. In the fitness and the nutrition categories what works for one person doesn't always work for the other person. We all have different body types. We all have different goals we are trying to attain. Scientific paradigms change all the time. In the end there is far more that we don't know than we do know. I appreciate the input that I have always gotten from the community posts. Let's all try and get along.

---

With due respect, opinion is one thing. And does indeed apply as you stated to goals and ways they are reached.

Saying things that are blatantly false is very much a different thing.

If you caught someone claiming it's normal and acceptable for your brake pedal after pressing down, to then slowly sink to the floor to make it easier to push - would you call them on it?

[BurdsNest]

3100 calories burned? Wow!! I can burn @ most 600 calories running 1-2 miles, and two classes, a cardio and a strength training, 45 minutes each.  I'm 5'3" @ 130pds. Are my calories under calculated or are you doing a fabulous job?  🙂

Sincerely,

Burn Baby Burn

[Heybales]

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@BurdsNest wrote:

@3100 calories burned? Wow!! I can burn @ most 600 calories running 1-2 miles, and two classes, a cardio and a strength training, 45 minutes each.  I'm 5'3" @ 130pds. Are my calories under calculated or are you doing a fabulous job?  🙂

Sincerely,

Burn Baby Burn

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Oh, that was reference to daily burn goal - so includes everything.

Just like you probably burn 2000-2500 daily perhaps.

[DominicJ]

Fantastically informative post.

From the laymens perspective, would I be right to say

muscles burn fuel stored in the muscle

muscle fuel is replaced by fuel stored in blood

blood fuel is replaced by fuel stored in liver

liver fuel is replaced by fuel stored in fat cells?

Are there any sort of broad rules on how fast those replenishments happen and what the storage levels are?

I've heard 800calories in the liver?

Or am I just spouting rubbish?

[SunsetRunner]

Like the way you summarized that Dominic!

Was just at a Robert Cheeke lecture and this very topic came up.  Had to look back through my notes a bit to refresh myself...

In summary form, he breaks it down like this:

(depending on when you last ate -- which is why recommended to exercise 1st thing in AM before eating to shorten the timeline to get into fat-burning zone)....When we initiate exercise, we have about an hour's worth of carbohydrate stores to fuel our continous athletic activity.....If we know we have about one hour of readily available carbohydrate fuel to use, what happens after we surpass an hour and do not take in any additional calories?  Our bodies will turn to the second most efficient fuel source we have, which is fat, as fuel.  Therefore if we exerciase for more than an hour (I prefer one hour fifteen minutes to be sure) and then continue exercising for an additional 15-30  minutes, that period is our fat burning zone. 

(end of book words, now mine)....

Rolled into all this is more info you need on your foods.  All calories/carbs/fats are not equal.  Sources matter.

So, when I used to go to the gym, usually after work, before dinner, would warm-up on treadmill with a jog for 15 mins or so...then spend about an hour on the weights.  Easy to plateau and get 'stuck' with not seeing results.  Later after learning more, and de-learning some bunk information..re-programmed my training.  See, if you never get past the stores in your body, at best you're treading water, burning off whatever you've eaten and essentially maintaining status quo.  Maybe see some initial changes due to toning up, dropping water weight, and some minor fat loss.

Figure out your BMI and your Harris-Benedict Equation which will tell you generally, how many calories you need to either maintain/gain/lose weight.  Working the weights first for 45-60 mins without loads of resting in between and THEN doing your cardio will hit the glyco depletion phase and move into the convert fat to fuel

yes, as trainer person said, your body CAN convert protein/muscle to fuel, but it is both very inefficient and would be the go-to if you were carrying like 5% body fat and either running a marathon or stuck on survivor island without enough food.

I think Dom has it right.....body stores fuel in muscles for immediate needs....then starts converting fat to fuel....finally will start consuming muscle/functional body weight. Last zone sounds unhealthy to me, I probably spend most of my time in the first zone as goals being to maintain or even gain some mass.  If toning /weightloss are your goals, then Zone 2 is your target...

.

[SunsetRunner]

BurdsNest...I think you're calcuations are low...but maybe not....just radome googling turned up:

So a 150 pound person will burn 94.4 Calories/mile running,

Average of course.  So 2 mile run would be 200 cals (give or take), so with your other classes maybe 600 is good.....

but using BMR and Harris rates...guessing at your age....

just existing you'll burn ~1300 cals/day...

with Harris-Benedict Equation for moderate exercise....The amount of calories needed to meet the energy needs
of a body with BMR of 1300 and an activity level multiplier
of 1.55 is:
2,015 Calories/Day

So that would be your intake to maintain your weight given moderate levels of exercise 3x per week...more or less.  Want to lose some weight, need couple hundred fewer calories or more exercise.  Gain weight, more fuel....

not sure if helpful, but yeah....

[Heybales]

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@DominicJ wrote:

Fantastically informative post.

From the laymens perspective, would I be right to say

muscles burn fuel stored in the muscle

muscle fuel is replaced by fuel stored in blood

blood fuel is replaced by fuel stored in liver

liver fuel is replaced by fuel stored in fat cells?

Are there any sort of broad rules on how fast those replenishments happen and what the storage levels are?

I've heard 800calories in the liver?

Or am I just spouting rubbish?

---

You pretty much got it up to the last question in the list.

Though I would add at the very start of the list at start of exercise, the carbs is from blood mostly. Your body's traning of the aerobic zone will decide how fast it switches from blood sugar to muscle glucose. Also being in fasted state can make this happen faster as mentioned above.

The glucose stored in the muscles is then used, right along with the fat from the blood stream. So really the muscle fuel is duel supply. Endurance cardio has shown to cause some fat to be stored in the muscle exactly for making that trip faster and shorter.

Or if doing intense anaerobic cardio it's muscle and blood carbs.

This is where the confusion also starts - your muscle glucose is NOT used up overnight, and there is way more than 1 hours worth of carbs there. The standard ratio of carbs to fat burned isn't changing much because of fasted cardio. Several studies have debunked that myth having any real benefit when examined in light of the whole day.

Last line - Liver fuel replaced by carbs eaten, or protein converted to carbs when excess available or it's needed. While there is a fat to carb conversion process, it's inefficient and last in list to do, and can't provide enough to do much with anyway.

Other tidbit there, stored muscle glucose can NOT be put back in to the blood stream in case your liver was tapped out and blood sugar was getting low, or muscles elsewhere needed more.

Hence the reason endurance cardio starts showing amino acid loss by conversion, liver is low, and while the fat and the carbs from the muscles is fine for the muscles working, your body wants blood sugar back up and if liver is low, it's getting it from somewhere. But during endurance cardio, muscle is breaking down anyway so available amino acids usually.

Liver is about 400 calories worth of carbs.

Bloodstream few teaspoons of sugar. I guess to help the medicine go down. 😉

Muscles as a whole not in a diet can hold 1000-1500 calories of carbs for average active person.

Exercising endurance can increase that by 500, maybe 750 if it includes total body muscle usage.

Speed - depends on makeup of food.

Liver first, then muscles. Insulin usually starts lowering 2-4 hrs after eating enough food or enough carbs that it went up in the first place, meaning what has been processed has been stored.

Fastest after endurance cardio was carb:protein ration of 4:1 within 30 min increased uptake faster than if you waited. Don't have the studies right here.

But in a diet, usually aren't all topped off anyway.

Think of a decent workout burning say 600 calories. Let's say top of aerobic zone, so only 40% fat burn, 60% carb.

@600 cal @ 60% carbs = 360 calories of carbs burned.

360 / 4 (calorie per gram) = 90 grams burned.

Is the next meal even going to have 90 grams or 360 calories worth of carbs eaten?

Not counting the liver drop from your last meal that happened too. 

So unless eating very high carbs, not even eating enough at next meal probably to top off what was burned.

Which means insulin drops pretty fast compared to no workout, and back to normal fat burning mode that is over 90% of energy source.