Cutting or bulking first?

[Dominique]

In a recent topic, there were talks about whether the priority should be to "bulk" (eat at a surplus to gain muscle) or to "cut" (eat at a deficit to lose fat).

A good example of someone who chose to cut first is Scott Tousignant. On his web site, he posted photos of himself at 175 lbs:

and at 140-145 lbs:

It’s commonly mentioned muscle is heavier/denser than fat, and that therefore someone would be heavier after gaining muscle, but his photos clearly show one can look (and be) more muscular while being a lot lighter at the same time.

[SunsetRunner]

I think most of us would be happy with 175, I know I would be

[SunsetRunner]

If you are brand new to training, I wouldn't cut (you won't have any good muscle tone to cut too) or bulk (bulking above 15% BF is inefficient and not visually appealing).

Instead, a recomp, where you eat just below maintenance and engage in a weight training program built on progressive overload will let the novice lifter both shed fat and build muscle at the same time (although not as fast if concentrating on one or the other).

I recomped for a year before embarking on my first cut to get from 15% Bodyfat to 10% bodyfat.  I can tell you that the visual appearance is much better 🙂

[SunsetRunner]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

I think most of us would be happy with 175, I know I would be

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That depends on one's height.  I'm 6'1 and 170lbs.   Someone 5'5 wouldn't be happy weighing 175lbs.  

[SunsetRunner]

Happy is a relative state!  When I was obese I thought, I'd be happy at a normal BMI.  At a normal BMI I thought I'd be happy if I were more muscular, when I got more muscular I thought I'd be happy being shredded...

I learned the happiness comes from the process, for me, not a specific end result!

[Dominique]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

If you are brand new to training, I wouldn't cut (you won't have any good muscle tone to cut too) or bulk (bulking above 15% BF is inefficient and not visually appealing).

Instead, a recomp, where you eat just below maintenance and engage in a weight training program built on progressive overload will let the novice lifter both shed fat and build muscle at the same time (although not as fast if concentrating on one or the other).

I recomped for a year before embarking on my first cut to get from 15% Bodyfat to 10% bodyfat.  I can tell you that the visual appearance is much better 🙂

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I think we understand "cutting" and "bulking" in a slightly different way. For me, cutting is eating at a deficit with losing fat as the primary goal. Cutting can be mild, moderate or aggressive (depending on your deficit). It does not exclude resistance training. Bulking is eating at a surplus with gaining muscle as the primary goal. Likewise, it can be mild, moderate or aggressive. I tend to favor mild deficits and surpluses, so my definition of cutting would be closer to what you define as "recomp", especially since weight lifting is an important part of my current physical activity.

This is my weight during the past three months (courtesy of TrendWeight and my Aria scale):

Weight loss: only about 2 kg in three months, so I can’t have eaten very much under maintenance. As to whether "recomp" has occured (gaining muscle at the same time as losing fat), I can’t say anything about that: not significant enough to be clearly visible. I’m realistic: as a 55-year-old guy, I don’t have the same potential for gaining as a 20-something.

Now,  going from obese to 10% body fat in 18 months is nothing short of amazing! 

[SunsetRunner]

"Now,  going from obese to 10% body fat in 18 months is nothing short of amazing!"

Thanks!  I'm 40 myself so hasn't been as easy as it would have been at 20, but I've been pretty determined and strict with adhering to my nutrition and training plans.  I have scheduled a DEXA scan next Wednesday to see exactly how close I am to my goal.  I'm hopeful I only have another month or two left on this cut.  Eating below TDEE is starting to get old!

Pretty sure we have the same definition of bulking and cutting, I perhaps did not explain in as great detail as you did.  Your definitions are spot on.

Typically I don't like to use cutting and buling (bodybuilding principles) for untrained (new to lifting)people who are attempting to lose signifigant bodyfat.  Cutting, as you mentioned is primarily about shedding BF (but you will lose some lean muscle mass as well), but if you don't have enough developed muscle to cut to, the results are usually less than aestethic (the dredded "skinny-fat").  Hence why I like to promote a recomp, the process to both shed fat and gain muscle, in untrained individuals.  You can eat at a slight surplace if the priority is muscle building, or at a slight defecit if the goal is primarily to lose fat. 

Love your chart, data is a passion of mine.  Although muscular developments are difficult to gauge day-to-day, I stole one of Arnolds principles and take progress pics every week or so.  Really allows me to compare and contrast and tweak my program based on the results.

Great progress, keep it up!  And don't gauge your ability to build muscle until you're comfortable running a true bulk (apologies if you have already) for a couple of months.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

As an aside, a natural (non-enhanced) male following good nutrition and training can expect to put on between a quarter to a half pound of muscle per week.  I took a diet break around January and ran a mini bulk for two months.  I put on more visible muscle during this period than the entire year previous eating at a caloric defecit. 

[Dominique]

@SunsetRunner: do you have an Aria scale (or another scale that relies on BIA)? If so, I’d be interested to hear how body fat estimated via BIA compares with DEXA, which is supposed to be the "gold standard". I haven’t been able to find a place that offers DEXA scans for body fat measurements where I live (Finland). 

[SunsetRunner]

I have a scale that measures BIA (not an Aria though).  It tells me 20% BF.  Calipers tell me 12%.  My calcs land somewhere in the 12-16% range.  Depends how much muscle I've put on in the last year.  I will post my DEXA results when I get them.  I'm a little nervous, don't want to keep cuttingh all summer if I can help it!

[Dominique]

Well, if you live in the Northern hemisphere, aren’t you supposed to cut ahead of the Summer (for the beach season), and to bulk in winter (when you’ve got plenty of clothes on) . 

[SunsetRunner]

DEXA scan put me just above 20% BF.  A lot higher than I anticipated (visual indicators say 12-14%), but apparently I am still storing a lot of fat around my internal organs.

Means I have a lot further to go on my cut, which is dissapointing, but the data is invaluable.

I'm trying to remind myself to enjoy the process today and not focus too much on the numbers 🙂

Cheers!

[FitBeforeFifty]

Don't be too disapointed by the DEXA scan results. A DEXA scan is always going to be much higher than our previous standard measurement methods we've used in the past: calipers, hydrostatic weighing, impedence etc...

I've personally never been through an actual bulk phase -- at least not an intentional one 

For me, I lost weight at a relatively slow rate (1 lb per week or less) eating at TDEE - 500. When I reached my goal weight I was fairly strong and a little muscular. I then began eating at or above maintenence and lifted heavier. I gained strength and muscle very slowly but without adding body weight -- what you are calling recomp. 

Personally, it was hard for me to consider a bulk phase after I had worked so hard to get to my goal weight. Here's my before after: 180 lbs on the left, 143 lbs on the right:

[SunsetRunner]

Looking shredded man way to go!