Can i eat above maintenance and still lose weight?

[simong86]

Hi guys, just a quick question about calorie intake. So iv been trying to lose bodyfat by doing a 750 kcal deficit food plan, and i have lost weight, almost 4 kg but only 3% bf since sep. It seems im losing more muscle than bf. When i calculate my RMR including activity level i usually get between 2800-3200 Kcal. Even when i use the highest activity level when calculating i still end up at around 3600kcal (2850kcal for a deficit). The problem is that i have a low activity desk job that involves little movement but i work out 6 days a week and according to my fitbit i burn between 3400-3700 Kcal per day, sometimes over 4000 if i add a cardio session. The question i have is should i stick to eating in a deficit of 750 kcal no matter how many calories i burn or should i stick to my RMR figures? I just dont see how i could function and workout properly if im in a deficit of almost 2000kcal per day over a long period. I use the Harris Benedict equation and my stats are 5ft 11in, 183lbs and around 19%bf(dont know how accurate the bf is, its taken from my weighing scales)

[GershonSurge]

@simong86,

I'm your height. Your numbers don't add up. It's possible you have some misconceptions. It will help if you share the graphs on your profile.

[simong86]

@GershonSurge what graphs do you want me to upload and i will put them up

[ivanma]

Hello Simon.

I have quite a bit of experience in weight management. I will lay out my view on your issue.

The calories in and calories out is one of the most tragic and misunderstood myths of our time, that prevents so many people from losing weight and maintaining muscle at the same time. This principle does not hold true in our body, since our bodies does different things with our macros. It is not a fireplace that burns them for heat.

The greatest myth out there is that one cannot lose fat and build muscle at the same time. I used to think that too. However, this this is not true at all. And I speak from experience. 

Cutting down our calories puts your body into a starvation mode where it has to adjust to the calories you are consuming. Meaning it slows you metabolism. The organs that require the most energy are the muscles, and sadly, these are the first to go. Also you might feel fatigued and low in energy ans sometimes mental clarity. 

The solution is rather what you eat rather than how much. Your body has essential fats and proteins, but NOT carbs. Feeding your body all essential nutrients and macros will ease the hunger and make your body go into a fat burning mode.

The key to losing weight is stabilizing your insulin level. THAT IS IT.

The main thing that elevates your insulin is carbs. (Sometimes protiens like WHEY PROTEIN). Therefore, reducing your carbs to no more than 20g per day will have you losing weight quite rapidly. 

You do not have to count calories. Just eat until you are full. Increase you fat intake to compensate for your carb reduction.

Eating healthy will also help. Where you get your carbs from is essential. Get your carbs from low starchy vegetables like, 

Broccoli

Cauliflower

Carrot

Zucchini

Brussels Sprouts

Olives

Cucumber

Avocado

Asparagus

Spinach

Eat small portions of these vegetables and make sure you don't exceed 20 g carbs. 

Next you should focus on getting lots of meat, which is quite nutrient dense makes you full. 

Choose fatty red meats as these are packed with nutrients, fats and are great for petite, anti muscle wasting and hormones. Eat as much as you wish. 

You have you have a good source of Fats to replace your carbs. Olive oil, butter and coconut oil are excellent options for you. Make sure you incorporate this into your diet. You can drizzle some olive oil on you veggies, and cook in butter.

With this diet you can eat as much as you wish, preserve and build muscle and lose weight at the same time. Do not calorie cont. Have 1-3 meals a day and make sure that you do not snack in between meals.

It takes about 4-5 days to get fat adapted since your body is not used to using fat for fuel. PS: That is why many people have such trouble losing weight.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

[GershonSurge]

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@simong86 wrote:

@GershonSurge what graphs do you want me to upload and i will put them up

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If you make the steps and calorie graphs in your profile visible, it will help.

[simong86]

@GershonSurge I have made my calories and steps public so you should be able to see them on my profile now

[ivanma]

Have you ever tried Ketosis as way to lose weight?

[SunsetRunner]

You cannot lose fat in a surplus. I would consider how many calories you are currently eating and go from there. How big of deficit depends on you. If you feel like you are struggling to get through the day then you may want to have a smaller deficit. If you aren’t seeing any changes after a few weeks then you may want to increase the deficit. Those calculators and equations are only estimates. They really don’t consider other factors that play an important role in how much you actually burn.

[Dominique]

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@ivanma wrote:

Have you ever tried Ketosis as way to lose weight?

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This is how the ketogenic diet works (for weight loss), compared to other diets (list is not exhaustive):

Nothing magical in it, and it’s in no way universally better than any other diet. People need to find out what floats their boats.

[GershonSurge]

@simong86,

Thanks for making the data visible. It appears that Fitbit is greatly overestimating the number of calories you are burning.

RMR is resting metabolic rate. Most people use BMR, which is basal metabolic rate. They are both the same thing. They are the number of calories you would burn if you stayed in bed all day.

Total Daily Calorie Expenditure (TDEE) is the total number of calories you burn in a day. In other words, the number that your Fitbit measures. I estimate your TDEE is in the neighborhood of 2,500 calories a day or less.

Since you are losing weight slowly, your calorie deficit isn't as big as you calculated. The calorie equation does work. Since you don't appear that you are logging your food on Fitbit, you may be underestimating the number of calories you are eating.

Accept that losing weight will take some time... maybe two or three years to get to your optimum weight. The first step is transitioning to healthy food in a common sense way and slightly increasing your activity.

Take a look at your snacks. Thinks that come in a bag, like potato chips, aren't healthy. Substitute some fruit you bring from home. A cup or so of grapes is an easy choice. So is an apple or an orange. 

Stop using dressings on salads. Instead, chop the vegetables to about the size of cole slaw and add about half a chopped jalapeno pepper for flavor. You can also use balsamic vinegar.

Give up all soda, even sugar free. Substitute water or tea.

Make two substitutions of this sort and see what happens in two or three weeks. Shoot for a 950 calorie deficit according to the Fitbit numbers. If you get hungry or dizzy, have a slice of bread. Whole grain is best. Losing weight permanently shouldn't involve being hungry.

If you have the beginnings of a chronic illness, let me know. Don't tell me what it is if you don't want to. Then we can jump right to a healthy diet. This will involve a bunch of reading for you.

[Dominique]

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@simong86 wrote:

So iv been trying to lose bodyfat by doing a 750 kcal deficit food plan, and i have lost weight, almost 4 kg but only 3% bf since sep. [...] my stats are 5ft 11in, 183lbs and around 19%bf(dont know how accurate the bf is, its taken from my weighing scales)

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Trying to "reconstruct" your numbers:

losing 3% body fat: I assume this means "losing 3 percentage points", i.e. going from 22 to 19%.

you are currently 183 lbs (83 kg): since you lost 4 kg, you went down from 87 to 83 kg.

September: 87 kg, 22% BF -> fat mass = 19.1 kg, lean mass = 67.9 kg

November: 83 kg, 19% BF -> fat mass = 15.8 kg, lean mass = 67.2 kg

So the 4 kg you lost were 3.3 kg fat (82%) and 0.7 kg lean mass (18%). If the numbers are accurate, the ratio is excellent IMO.

[ivanma]

You are greatly mistaken. The ketogenic diet does result in "cutting calories", what ever that means in practical terms. However, it prevents muscle wasting. 

The key to losing weight without starving yourself boils down to stabilizing your insulin. And you will lose weight naturally. You will feel full. 

When you starve yourself you lose muscle since it is quite an energy consuming organ. 

Trust me, I have been doing this for years. Intentional calorie cutting is a bad idea. You are putting you body through a lot of stress and deficiencies. 

Again, the ketogenic diet stabilizes you insulin level. Which is not only good for losing weight but also taking up more nutrients. 

Testosterone plays a big role here. When cutting calories your T goes down. On the ketogenic diet your cholesterol rises and T rises with it. 

[ivanma]

@Dominique Here is an example that calories do not really matter.

This study -> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5064803/

Looked at people 2 groups of people that ate as many calories and exercised as much with the same sets and reps and same intensity. They ate the EXACT same thing. The only difference was that the one group had a small eating window, that is, intermittent fasting. 

So after consuming SAME calories, and SAME FOOD...

RESTULTS:

The intermittent fasting group:

16% reduction in body fat after 2 months. 

3.1% increase in muscle mass.

The normal group:

2.8% reduction in body fat percentage:

0.4% increase in muscle mass.

This shows right then and there that the calorie thing is nonsense. Have a look at the study yourself.

This thing is that different calories and eating schedules elicit different hormonal responses that dictate whether to build muscle or gain fat or vise versa.  

Do you really think that drinking only soda one would build muscle, provided that the sodas were a caloric surplus?

The body is a complex system. For example: our body usually does not use protein as a source of energy, but if it does, the conversion of protein to sugar (Glycogenesis) loses half its energy. Meaning that protein energy is at 2 cal per gram NOT 4. What you eat is more important than couting calories.

[Dominique]

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@ivanma wrote:

The key to losing weight is stabilizing your insulin level. THAT IS IT.

[...]

The main thing that elevates your insulin is carbs.

[...] 

The key to losing weight without starving yourself boils down to stabilizing your insulin. And you will lose weight naturally. You will feel full.

[...]

Again, the ketogenic diet stabilizes you insulin level. Which is not only good for losing weight but also taking up more nutrients.

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The problem with keto/low-carb zealots is that all they see is a conspiracy by evil insulin (and equally evil carbs) to make you fat / prevent you from getting leaner. Makes you wonder why we were created with a pancreas in the first place.

For people with insulin resistance, whether it was acquired at birth (type I diabetes) or in adult age, usually because of lifestyle choices (pre-diabetic condition / type II diabetes), it probably makes sense to restrict carbs. However, you shouldn’t assume everyone has problems with insulin sensitivity. I for one has none whatsoever. I’d assume @simong86 hasn’t got any either, based on his age and the fact he’s maintaining a normal weight and is at a normal leanness level. So why should we avoid carbs at any cost? Since you talked about muscle: who are the most jacked individuals you can think of? Bodybuilders, powerlifters, to name a few. The vast majority consume large amounts of carbs, including the starchy ones (rice, pasta) you advocate against. Show me a competitive powerlifter that thrives on a ketogenic diet. They don’t abound.

If a low-carb/ketogenic diet appeals to someone and suits their requirements, I’m fine with that. But the idea such a diet would be the best possible for everyone is simply misguided. I’ve had no problem managing my weight and getting leaner/more muscular while eating plenty of carbs, including sugar (mostly fruits) and starch. I simply don’t see why I should be changing this approach. 

[simong86]

@Dominique I have no problem with insulin sensitivity as i am still losing weight even though my carb intake is usually between 200-250g per day. When im trying to add size my carb intake is usually around 300-320g per day and honestly i could eat alot more without feeling the effects. I used to do alot of competitve swimming/water polo and literally lived on carbs and was always lean no matter how much i ate. @ivanma A keto diet would simply not work for me as it involves eating less protein and more fats. I generally aim for around 180g protein and a bit more when losing weight as to decrease the amount of lean muscle loss. You mentioned starvation mode which i think is neither here or there. Starvation mode does not apply to the general public unless there is extreme circumstances, i.e a famine or holocaust survivers come to mind. You suggested eating only 20g of carbs a day, my protein shake has almost 10g alone and eating leafy greens has the added benefit of fiber to help digestion so i dont see any good to eating such a small amount@GershonSurge I log all of my meals on fitbit. Im aware that losing weight may take some time but i have already lost 4kg since september but i want to lower my bf % while keeping as much muscle as i can. My diet is not perfect but i do try and make good decisions most of the time. I drink almost 3L of water per day, eat 4 meals per day and usually a snack in the evening (usually fat free yogurt). The other 4 meals consist of either turkey/chicken/beef/tuna with either wholegrain rice(on back and leg day) and/or veg. I eat fruit everyday and rarely drink sodas or eat potato chips (maybe 1/2 of each a month as a treat). How did you get a total of 2500 kcal for my TDEE? I may have a sedentary lifestyle while at work but i work out 6 days per week using heavy weights and doing power lifting style exercises, there is no way it could be 2500.

[Daves_Not_Here]

Hi @ivanma - welcome to the forum!  I notice you favor the Ketogenic diet/lifestyle, as do I.  As a fellow Keto fan, I'd like to take the liberty to offer some constructive suggestions and hope you will take them in the spirit given:

• The Ketogenic diet is highly relevant to this "Manage Weight" community, and there are a number of active participants here who are in the Keto "camp".  However, my suggestion is confine Keto advocacy and debate to the Keto specific threads, of which there are many.
• My opinion is that, while Keto is great for me, it's not the best for everybody.  In my case, I never explicitly recommend it to others.  That said, a number of my friends and associates have been influenced by my results to try Keto, with mixed results.  We could discuss these in a dedicated thread (great idea - I'll start it when I'm done typing this).
• If your response to every general weight loss question is to recommend the Ketogenic diet, those threads will always devolve into religious arguments and you will be branded a zealot.  Counterproductive.  That's really more of a vegan move, and Lord knows you never want to emulate the vegans (shudder).  For reasons of Public Relations and goodwill, you will find you have far more influence if you keep it cool, limit your advocacy to the dedicated threads, and attract the interested to give your point of view a fair hearing.

Not trying to be the forum nanny, and hope you will receive this feedback as constructive and positive!

[JimC_99]

If you eat above maintenance you will gain.  If you want to add muscle, you will need to alter the calories you eat - Higher protein, less carbs and less fat.  Everyone has a unique metabolism so you will need to find what works best for you at this point in time.

[bikerhiker]

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@simong86 wrote:

Hi guys, just a quick question about calorie intake. So iv been trying to lose bodyfat by doing a 750 kcal deficit food plan, and i have lost weight, almost 4 kg but only 3% bf since sep. It seems im losing more muscle than bf. When i calculate my RMR including activity level i usually get between 2800-3200 Kcal. Even when i use the highest activity level when calculating i still end up at around 3600kcal (2850kcal for a deficit). The problem is that i have a low activity desk job that involves little movement but i work out 6 days a week and according to my fitbit i burn between 3400-3700 Kcal per day, sometimes over 4000 if i add a cardio session. The question i have is should i stick to eating in a deficit of 750 kcal no matter how many calories i burn or should i stick to my RMR figures? I just dont see how i could function and workout properly if im in a deficit of almost 2000kcal per day over a long period. I use the Harris Benedict equation and my stats are 5ft 11in, 183lbs and around 19%bf(dont know how accurate the bf is, its taken from my weighing scales)

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Measuring accurate body fat requires a body pod, a DEXA, hydrostatic water weight to be on the accurate side.  The bio-impedance is ok, though not accurate by any means.  Having said that, if your waist line is shrinking, your hip circumference and your neck circumference are getting smaller, then you are loosing body fat.  Most importantly though, you want to loose visceral fat; fat around the belly.

Do you feel hungry and sleepy after you eat lunch or do you feel vitality, lots of energy and vigorous after lunch?  

You know; I am not sure why do you need to exercise 6 days/week?

For me, I tried doing the brute force way a number of years ago; ran 10k in 35min, full and ultra-marathons, swim 2k and bike 160km/day.  All that when I was younger and the best I could achieve weight wise is 142lbs.  Today, I do only 3days 30min swim and 2 HITT (5-10min) and I broke the 142lbs barrier that I couldn't break for decades.  And I eat a normal balanced diet.  Nothing special.  I get to enjoy a sweet cookie, a banana bread and ice cream (that's apparently very bad in a Keto diet as they're not even gluten free).  My doctor's report so far shows perfect scores.  Finally, my diabetes is under control.  I even eat Chinese food every week in a restaurant with lots of MSG.  I heard with Keto that MSG raises Insulin 200%.  Bleehh -- hogwash.  Sometimes, it's not all about brute force caloric deficit and some fancy diet plan.  Sometimes, it's about giving your body and your mind a bit of rest, eating healthy and fresh and then start over again.  You can not push the body and your mind in stress mode all week long (caloric deficit is stressful to the body) and expect it to burn fat and loose weight.  The body does not work that way and neither does the mind.  Most of the fat burning also happens at night during Delta Deep Sleep.  If you have a Fitbit; get it to analyze your sleep to see if you have sleep insomnia or sleep apnea.  Those prohibit fat burning.

The body works better when it's fully rested, when it's healthy and all the organs are working properly, when nutrients especially Potassium (4700mg of that/day) and trace minerals not from vitamin bottles are fully provided that will make you feel more full.  You know, I never used my Fitbit to track my calories in or out.  Look at my trend weight..  One week I was in the conference and eat nothing but not so healthy food and yet, I lost weight.  No binge eating and not even any calorie counting either, because I felt FULL.  In the Princess Cruise ship the following other week after the conference with family, with only 2 HIIT resistance training of 10min/day, I didn't gain a lot because I fell full the whole time, so I don't have to indulge on unnecessary food.  You know in a cruise, you have all the pleasures of food.  In fact, I was in maintenance mode while doing my own personal psychotherapy until I realized I am loosing weight again and my waist line just shrank another 1".  I'm starting to see my abs and packs forming nicely, but I see more clarity with my mind.

My thoughts is; diet and exercise are very personal to every individual.  An individual should know what diet he or she should be in and be more appropriate.  It's an inner knowing; then the individual will seek to learn how to best approach that knowing. 

I live a full and happy life; that reflects then upon my body who will follow my mind and loose the weight.  Excess body fat is a cumulative baggage of fear and insecurity holding in my mind since birth.  Let go of those fears and insecurity in my mind and let them go, then my body will follow.  I was a bit skeptical about that, but so far, that's what I'm doing and it's working.  Latest blood report says I'm very healthy, except I'm recovering from a cold.  Even recovering from a nasty virulent cold I got working in the hospital was rather super quick.  Almost in the clear in just 6 days.  Even last year, it took about 3 weeks to get over a similar nasty cold.

[simong86]

@bikerhiker Thanks for the input, theres alot to consider in what you said about just enjoying yourself. My waist and neck do appear to be getting smaller but its just the stubborn fat around the belly thats bugging me. You asked if i feel sleepy or hungry after eating, the truth is i could eat a dinner and feel great and about 3 or 4 hrs later im hungry again.I dont really experience any tiredness throughout the day either no matter how often or how much i eat. The one strange thing i do notice though is if i eat a large amount of carbs during the day and dont exercise as hard as i could i get the sweats just sitting still. As odd as this sounds its true, but i check how many cals iv burnt before i start my workout and on days i eat more carbs my cals burned is always higher than days i have less carbs. Is that normal? As for training 6 days a week, thats just routine. From the age of 8-19 i swam and played water polo competitively which required an immense amount of hard work and training and i guess its just what im used to. Here is an example of my training timetable when i was younger:

Mon: 4:15pm - 6pm swim training

Tue: 6am - 8am swim training, 9pm - 11pm water polo training

Wed: 6am - 8am swim, 5:45pm - 7;15 pm swim

Thur:9pm - 11pm water polo

Fri: 6am - 8am swim

Sat:6am - 8am swim followed by 1 hr gym, 5:30pm - 6:30pm water polo

Sun: 7pm-9pm swim

All of that was when i was in school too so its not like i could rest after training. Now i train for 60-75 mins in the gym 6 times a week and it feels like nothing to me. Here is my workout:

Mon: chest + side delts 

Tue: Back+ traps

Wed: Quads

Thur: Shoulders

Fri: Arms

Sat: Hamstrings

I think i will just take it easy and eat at maintenance for a week and see if that will kickstart the fat loss again.

[bikerhiker]

@simong86

Thank you for sharing all your vital workout stats.  I also swim myself and seeing that you swam roughly 2 hrs a day (if that's your current routine now) meant that you should be burning a higher proportional amount of body fat + carbs and perhaps you did that while losing those initial lbs/kgs.  Nevertheless, I think your body had adapted to your exercise regime and your caloric deficit and you hit a weight plateau where your metabolism had found an equilibrium.  That stubborn fat around your belly is usually the last thing to go -- sort of icing on the cake in weight loss.  Sometimes what needs to be done is just to reset your metabolism by easing up your exercise routine (just much less but not a complete stop.  Weight will go up a bit due to this, but when your body feels rested and usually this takes about 1 to 3 months period, you can restart your weight loss program again.  If you examine my trend weight, you see that I stayed at the plateau for about 1 month before I started losing weight again (some people highly recommend 3 months).  I also chose to work in a less stressful environment and better work life balance and that may have shorten my recovery period before the next cycle of weight loss.  Weight loss is like running a marathon, which the success of it happens in stages..

Good luck!