Effective Heart Rate Zone for Fat Loss

[Ernest61]

What heart rate zone is more effective for burning fat off my stomach area? I know there are many variations of heart rate zones such as fat burning, cardio, aerobic, peak, etc.  Does staying in the "fat burning zone" the zone to be in to effectively burn fat?   According to my average 20 minute run pattern, I average about 0-3 minutes in fat burning zone, maybe 3-5 cardio and the rest in peak of 16 minutes.  Also, does cardio and peak areas deplete muscle growth? 

I would appreciate if anyone can provide some clarity and advice.  

[Dominique]

Welcome to the community, @Ernest61!

What’s effective for fat loss is being in a caloric deficit. You can create the deficit by increasing your activity, decreasing your intake, or a combination of both. What HR zones you land in when exercising won’t have a major impact on fat loss. And you can’t "spot reduce" fat, i.e. choose which parts of your body it should come off from. If you want to minimize loss of lean mass while dieting, give your muscles a reason to stick around by using them (= lift weights).  

[bikerhiker]

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@Ernest61 wrote:

What heart rate zone is more effective for burning fat off my stomach area? I know there are many variations of heart rate zones such as fat burning, cardio, aerobic, peak, etc.  Does staying in the "fat burning zone" the zone to be in to effectively burn fat?   According to my average 20 minute run pattern, I average about 0-3 minutes in fat burning zone, maybe 3-5 cardio and the rest in peak of 16 minutes.  Also, does cardio and peak areas deplete muscle growth? 

I would appreciate if anyone can provide some clarity and advice.  

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The question you would ask is; what is your fitness level?  Usually it can be determined by measuring your VO2 Max; by measuring your oxygen consumption per volume of work output.  That usually requires a facility that can measure your oxygen consumption and a person running on a treadmill.  You can pay a lab to do this and that tells you your efficiency zones if you want to get more precise.  In reality though, the only way to achieve a fat burn zone is to do a L.S.D (not drugs).  LSD stands for Long Slow Distance.  This is a necessity for all runners and this is to develop a cardio base, so you can use the base to develop your fitness level for running, if this is your main sport.  Why is that?  Because you need to run more than 45 minutes to realize the effect of fat burning as the human body isn't designed to get the energy specifically from fat only.  It draws on both carbohydrates and fat, but only in the fat burn zone that it burns a higher proportion of fat.  But, it can only do so if you have attained a higher fitness level, where you are using more calories to run faster!

Let's take 3 marathon runners all weighing 145lbs; one is a 2hr 30min runner, another is a 3 hr runner and the last one is a 4 hr runner.  Which one do you think burns more fat at the same R.P.E per hour? (Real Perceived Effort).  While all the runners will burn 2851 calories for the whole marathon, the one running 2hr 30min will burn 1140 calories/hr, whereas the runner who runs a 3hr marathon will burn 950 calories/hr and finally the person who runs a 4hr marathon would burn 713 calories/hr.

So what are the implications of this then?  That the faster runner will be able to burn more calories at a shorter period of time than a slow runner.  A slow 4hr runner running only 2hr and 30min will always burn less calories than a fast Olympic calibre running the same 2hr and 30mins at a faster pace!  The Olympic calibre runner will always burn a higher proportion of fat in all HR zones vs a slower 4hr marathoner.

The problem with many of the fat burn zone online calculator is that, it assumes you are an elite runner.  But most of us are not elite runners, but it fools people thinking that you can achieve the same fat burning rate as a top elite runner for a short run. 

The best way to reduce fat is to focus on a healthy diet and then a routine exercise which should challenge your fitness level.  Meaning that if you are a runner, you should consider doing some HIIT intervals at the aerobic and anaerobic HR zone.  When you raise your aerobic and anaerobic HR zone, you will raise all the other zones which then allow you to burn more calories for a shorter period of time.  Most people do not realize that if you have a low fitness potential; it takes a very long time to burn fat, and you can't spot burn fat.

In terms of muscle growth; at peak levels (aerobic and anaerobic) you will engage more of your Type 2 muscle fibres for more explosive forward propulsion, but running recruits both Type 1 and Type 2 muscles fibres; Type 1 for endurance and Type 2 for speed and these will grow correspondingly to your fitness level and running pace.  The stronger runner you are; be it a sprinter will focus more on Type 2 and for marathon and triathlon type events Type 1.  You need these muscles growth to help you run faster as well as your heart.  

[Dominique]

@bikerhiker wrote:

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In terms of muscle growth; at peak levels (aerobic and anaerobic) you will engage more of your Type 2 muscle fibres for more explosive forward propulsion, but running recruits both Type 1 and Type 2 muscles fibres; Type 1 for endurance and Type 2 for speed and these will grow correspondingly to your fitness level and running pace.  The stronger runner you are; be it a sprinter will focus more on Type 2 and for marathon and triathlon type events Type 1.  You need these muscles growth to help you run faster as well as your heart.  

The distinction between muscle fiber types is interesting, but @Ernest61 was asking whether cardio training would impede muscle growth and whether training in the peak HR zone would be detrimental to muscle (or at least that’s how I interpreted "deplete muscle growth"). This is a valid concern IMO, because cardio training tends to be catabolic by nature, and being in a caloric deficit (so as to lose weight) also make for a catabolic environment. The solution is to include some resistance training in your workout routine, so you have a mix of cardio training (for improving cardio fitness and cardio-vascular health, as well as burning extra calories) and resistance training (for stimulating muscle and providing an incentive for them to grow, or at least not disappear).

[bikerhiker]

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@Dominique wrote:

@bikerhiker wrote:

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In terms of muscle growth; at peak levels (aerobic and anaerobic) you will engage more of your Type 2 muscle fibres for more explosive forward propulsion, but running recruits both Type 1 and Type 2 muscles fibres; Type 1 for endurance and Type 2 for speed and these will grow correspondingly to your fitness level and running pace.  The stronger runner you are; be it a sprinter will focus more on Type 2 and for marathon and triathlon type events Type 1.  You need these muscles growth to help you run faster as well as your heart.  

The distinction between muscle fiber types is interesting, but @Ernest61 was asking whether cardio training would impede muscle growth and whether training in the peak HR zone would be detrimental to muscle (or at least that’s how I interpreted "deplete muscle growth"). This is a valid concern IMO, because cardio training tends to be catabolic by nature, and being in a caloric deficit (so as to lose weight) also make for a catabolic environment. The solution is to include some resistance training in your workout routine, so you have a mix of cardio training (for improving cardio fitness and cardio-vascular health, as well as burning extra calories) and resistance training (for stimulating muscle and providing an incentive for them to grow, or at least not disappear).

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I wouldn't be too concerned about muscle growth training during peak HR if @Ernest61 has a valid training regimen.  What is interesting about running is that, you will gain strong well developed glutes (Gluteus Maximus and Minimus), strong hip stabilizers (to prevent I.T band syndrome) and a strong Traversus Abdominis which has the inner surfaces of the 7th to 12th costal cartilages, Thoracolumbar Fascia, Iliac Crest and Inguinal ligament.  Basically, the Traversus Abdominis, when well trained, will eventually take in its place the abdominal fat around the belly.  Runners call this the core muscles.  Most beginning runners don't really know how to train these muscles properly, but if you watch how professional runners run, you will see that they have a slight "lean" forward.  That "leaning forward" starts, not from the waist line, but from the ankle.  The faster you run, the more leaning forward you are.  What are the implications by leaning forward?  Well, if you lean forward without picking up your feet, you will kiss terra firma real fast and fall face flat.  But if you lean forward from your ankle and then quickly pick up your feet, you will move forward.  Basically, professional runners use "GRAVITY" to help them run thus conserving their energy only to push them forward faster and longer.  Mortal runners don't do this; they tend to bop up and down (the oscillation you see on their head).  Professional runners don't bop up and down, but rather they bop forward.  Again, this is a skill that needs to be taught by a certified running coach, but most runners lack this skill set.

So how do you train your core muscles?  By running a LSD a building up to a minimum of 45 to 60minutes with a slight lean forward at a very slow slow pace (not more than Zone 2 HR).  Most runners who do this tend to struggle A LOT.  The reason is that, most of these runners used to run upright with no lean forward and because they can't lean forward from their ankle long enough without inducing back pain due to undeveloped Transversus Abdominis, LSD is meant to built both cardio base and core base!  When the runner can comfortably run a slow LSD is when the runner adds peak HR sessions like intervals, hill training and tempo running in addition to LSD; all of which will require you to lean slightly more forward, which then challenges the T.A to become stronger, develop your T.A for longer endurance to sustain your peak HR workouts and burn more fat.  The faster and longer you run, the stronger your core muscles will develop to hold your upper body in a straight line as you lean forward from your ankle.  If you don't, your back will start to hurt, because back muscles aren't meant to hold your upper body on a faster run.  Your core is. 

Having said that, peak HR allows you to also develop your Type 2 muscle fibres by encouraging the pick up speed of your foot cadence.  The faster you run, the faster your cadence is.  And of course, if you lean forward more to take advantage of gravity, you have to pick up your feet faster to increase cadence to prevent yourself from falling face flat.  And this is how runners like Usain Bolt can run faster, but mere mortal runners can run faster like Usain Bolt by leaning forward like he does with a strong core, but also be able to pick up his/her feet at a much higher cadence; typically around 95-100 bpm (minimum).  That's 90 to 100 foot strikes per minute.  Most amateur runners have a foot strike of about 50-70bpm.  Slow in comparison to professional runners.  This is when you recruit various different muscle fibres.  For marathon runners, the emphasis will be placed on Type 1 fibres, but because you need very fast foot turnover, you will eventually recruit Type 2 fibres as well.  The training in increasing foot turnover requires a metronome.  In the past, I used to ask my athletes to buy the Seiko DM-50 digital metronome because it has a nice clip where you can attach it to your running short.  These days, you have an app on the phone and with wireless bluetooth earpiece replace the old Seiko DM-50 to train their foot turnover (cadence) from 50-70bpm to 90-95bpm.  And that transition will eventually be a constant cadence in LSD, Tempo, Interval and Hills.  So not only you'll be training your cardio at your peak levels, but you also train your core and your lower leg muscles to become stronger, more enduring for long periods of workouts and by product of this will be an athlete who can run faster and longer, but also with a strong core.  A marathon runner who runs 2hr and 30min engages his core, hip stabilizers and glutes for the entire 2hr 30min session.  This is different from a typical gym rat who doesn't or can't perform dynamic core workouts for this same period of time like a professional marathon runner can.  

So no, but in a way you are also correct.  If @Ernest61 trains properly, then he won't loose muscles.  He will gain muscles and loose belly fat fast.  His current training regimen however will NOT encourage muscle growth to help him burn fat if he runs mostly upright, with a slower cadence and at a short duration and validates your concerns.

[Dominique]

@bikerhiker: you appear to have a background in endurance sports, and consequently view everything through the prism of training for endurance, even when it relates to building muscle. I will admit you will build some muscle while running, or training for any other endurance sport, but it’s not the way to go if you want to maximise or optimize muscle building. For that, you need to engage in some form of resistance training based on the principle of progressive overload. If you want to build bigger quads, wider shoulders, bigger pecs and bigger arms, you will be better served by squatting, deadlifting and benchpressing than running. If it’s not your thing, and your primary interest is in endurance performance, that’s fine: wide shoulders won’t be of much help in a marathon race, except perhaps for pushing your way through the crowd at the start. Just don’t deny the fact muscle is best built (or preserved) by lifting heavy things rather than aerobic exercise. Cardio training and resistance training don’t have to be mutually exclusive: in fact, it makes perfect sense to do both, if you are a recreational athlete primarily interested in feeling well and looking good, as opposed to a competitive triathlete or powerlifter (who have to put most of their focus on the aspect specific to their sport).  

[bikerhiker]

@Dominique

Actually, I also do resistance training and some strength training in the gym and that is only for maintenance purposes.  I think the reason why I don't promote spending too much time in the gym is that even professional athletes do not spend all their time in the gym either.  You can't run faster just because your quads are bigger and your shoulder are broader.  If you look at the Kenyan marathon runners, their fat content are way lower than you and me.  Their legs are like sticks and their torso is pencil thin, but with their power and endurance, they can out class both of us and burn more calories/min and be able to maintain this fitness level longer.  I do not deny the fact that they would have a difficult time maintaining muscle mass as evidenced by their pencil thin torso and running legs and I think you need to acknowledge the fact that they can run faster because they are not carrying any excess muscle mass that serve them little purpose for forward propulsion.  My approach has always been, for my athletes, is to improve their fitness level so their improved exertion level can be lowered and at the same time burn more calories/min of activities.  I think the reason the OP is having difficulty running at a lower HR is because, the OP's lack of running fitness.  I feel that by reading his original post that the OP is trying to run faster than his current fitness level allows and thus his exertion was mainly at peak HR .  This in fact is quite a common error in many amateur runners.  I need to point out that the approach is not to add more weight and resistance training to raise fitness level, but rather to correct the error so the OP does run at his/her pace based on the current fitness level and raise from that level so that, when the OP runs at the same pace for the same 20 mins, the OP would have a lower R.P.E which means it won't be at peak HR but rather more like Zone 2 HR which helps to burn a higher proportion of fat.  This was how the Kenyans do it and is now part of the training regimen for North American runners.  At least, that was the training I got from running organization I worked for.  

I do not deny that weight and resistance training have their place and yet, I do not agree with you that endurance training is exclusively for professional athletes either.  Many Kenyans who ran to victories did not choose running to make money.  Most of them are living in extreme poverty, compared to our Western standards, and they, from their homes, ran to school with their books and back.  The reason I need to share this with you was because, I started running not because I wanted to win some medals.  I actually started running because I needed to save money on bus fares so I could buy an Apple II computer.  So I would just run from home to school with books on my back pack and then back and that would occur for about 3 years before someone asked me to join their track team in school and I did fairly well not because I have fairly developed muscles, although my shoulders were firmly developed due to me carrying those heavy books on my backpack.  My team mates had more muscle mass than I did as in the late 70s and early 80s, those were the training based approaches.  And yet, I was smoking them on 100m all the way to 1000m and while they were huffing and puffing, I was barely breaking a sweat.  The reason was not because I don't have muscle mass like my team mates, but I had a much deeper fitness base than they did.  This was actually a foreign concept and not until when the Kenyans and Ethiopians start to dominate the running circuit when North American runners started adopting the same training principles.  And that is, my team mates didn't have 3 years of running continuously every week and they didn't have 3 years of running to make their bodies running efficient.  So yes, I based my experience and knowledge of over 40 years of endurance sport and my approach has always been to improve one's fitness level in order to burn more calories/min of any activities you do and while I do not deny the fact your approach is also valid as well and I know some trainers heavily promote this, and yet I based my coaching approach on what works best for amateur athletes for the long term, because by raising your fitness level, the person is able to burn more calories/min by walking to work, by running, swimming, cycling etc.  A higher fitness level raises all ships; whereas you're limited to what you can do in the gym.  In terms of bang for the buck, endurance activities provide more bang for the buck and a person is able to maintain weight homeostasis better with less wild weight swings than someone who does not participate in endurance activities. 

[Dominique]

@bikerhiker: your reply once again shows your strong bias towards endurance training. I get it that Kenyan runners are leaner than me, run a lot faster and don’t need big quads for that. I have the utmost respect for their performance, but here is the thing: I have zero interest in looking like one. I once half-jokingly wrote my "physique model" is Floyd Mayweather, explaining why. I therefore train accordingly, which means I focus primarily on resistance training rather than on cardio. This is how Fitbit rates my current cardio fitness level:

It’s good enough for my needs and I don’t see the point in further improving it (given that I have no interest in competing in endurance sports), so I just put cardio on the back burner, doing the minimum needed to maintain the current level.

I still believe overweight people would benefit as much from resistance training as from cardio training. And as I said earlier, cardio and resistance training don’t need to be mutually exclusive.