Intermittent Fasting

[hawkinsblake]

Hello,

Hey everyone just wanted to start a quick topic to see if anyone else has tired, failed, or is curious about Intermittent Fasting. In the case of intermittent fasting (IF), the "diet" actually refers to periods of fasting, meaning you are restricted to eating very little—or nothing at all—for periods of time lasting anywhere from 16-24 hours. It may sound a little crazy, but intermittent fasting has been suggested as an effective weight loss tool, with research supporting its ability to increase fat oxidation, reduce body weight, and accelerate fat loss. 

The central idea behind the implementation of intermittent fasting is to reduce overall calorie consumption, ideally resulting in weight loss. Typically, IF protocols will have the individual undergo a period of intentional severe calorie restriction (ranging from 0-25 percent of the individual's normal daily caloric intake) for a period of 16-24 hours. Following the restrictive phase, the individual returns to relatively normal energy intake for 8-24 hours, depending on which version of IF they are following.

I am doing the 16 hour fast where I consume nothing but water and a cup of black coffee in the mid morning to hold me over. Then I eat my normal range of calories for the day in an 8 hour window. For me this is from Noon to 8pm. I am on my 5th day so can't atest to being an expert but I am loving all the research I have found and was just curious to see if there is anyone else out there.

[Raviv]

---

@Corney wrote:

Yes the Government made some mistakes concerning eggs, saturated fats, trans fats, but were quick to remedy their mistake, when new research proved theem wrong.  But to say they did that because they wanted to make money is just ridiculous.

---

I wouldn't call 30 or 40 years "quick" but maybe I'm strange.

I don't think The Government makes money off of saying X is good and Y is bad, but I do know individual politians make money when Product X is proclaimed to be good for you and Food Y is villified, at least in the US.  Other governments are often a little better at separating public health from corporate interests.

There were plenty of studies as well as anecdotal evidence that could have been considered, but once a governmental entity gets a course set, it's very hard for them to admit they were wrong and go in another direction.  I work for the government, so I see it every day.  Change is much harder than in the private sector.

If you have Netflix, watch the 4 part series Cooked by Michael Pollan.  He does a really good job of discussing how far we have come from the roots of our food without sliding into hyperbole or pushing an agenda.  If you don't have Netflix, read the book - same title.

---

@Corney wrote:

As I said before we are all adults, and have a free will to go along with Big Business or not, but when the poster mentioned we were being hypnotized, that was just too much!

---

Agree on the hypnotized part, but there are people who believe that whatever the government says is gospel truth.  I feel sorry for them because everything anyone says should be questioned.

The problem with "free will" is that anyone acting in a professional capacity does not have free will to tell their patients what they believe to be true if it conflicts with the official stance.  If you were a doctor and told your patients "Eat butter and eggs instead of margarine and cereal" you could lose your malpractice insurance, lose your hospital rights and lose the ability to accept most insurance.  And that's assuming you didn't lose your license.

So yes, we as individuals concerned about our own health do have free will.  The professionals we turn to for advice do not have that same liberty.

---

@Corney wrote:

It seem to me from what I reading here, most people are practicing fasting, or IF to lose weight, but I will ask again, will losing weight make them more physically fit?

---

Does one necessarily preclude the other?  Can they not exist simultaneously?

I'm not saying that all fasting is good for everyone.  Some take it too far and others should not be fasting in the first place.  Most religions even make exceptions for those that are not well or need to nurse a child or shouldn't fast for some other reason.  And I do think all should question how it's really working for then.

But honestly, the whole idea of keeping your blood sugar stable by keeping it forever elevated is old hat.  In our normal lives, we would naturally fast if we didn't happen to be near a food source until we got home at the end of a long day.  It's just the modern world that has us in the prescence of food 24/7.

For what it's worth, I don't intentionally fast myself.  I eat when I'm hungry.  Sometimes that's every couple of hours, and sometimes that's 8 hours later.  And sometimes I skip breakfast, which means a 16 or 17 hour gap.  But that's me.

[Ashley5683]

Fantastic. Everything I use is Optimum Nitrition. I'll try and save it for when I feel like I just can't make it but it's great knowing I have the freedom to use it!

[divedragon]

Ashley,

You'll probably find that once your body is conditioned to burn fat you won't have those energy lags.  The ketones will take care of your energy needs.

As an alternative, you could consider alternate day fasting and working out on non-fasting days.  I've just converted to ADF, but not on long enough to see a change yet.  I did fast for 5 days straight last week.  I lost 5 lbs, so my weight loss is re-initiated.  ADF this week to see what happens on Friday (weigh in day). 

Hang in there, you'll do fine!

[Ashley5683]

Okay so it's my week one weigh in and I'm a bit disappointed that I've only lost half a pound. I'm worried about it though bc this past week has been tough. I injured my foot at work so exercising has not been an option. Can't wait to see how next week goes.

[hawkinsblake]

Ashley5683,

Congrats on one week down. Don't get discouraged about "only losing half a pound". It took me a couple weeks to get any results and I hate that you hurt your foot. Just try to move when you can without futhering your injury. This is a good time to get the small dumbells out and do some exercises with your upper body without putting too much weight on your injured foot. YOU GOT THIS GIRL!!!! 

 This is one pound of fat. Just look on the bright side and stay positive you took off half a coffee mug of fat of your body! That's amazing!!!

[Littlera]

Hi Ashley big congratulations on your first week this one was the hardest week for me and your have done it pow….

[Ashley5683]

Thanks guys. The encouragement is wonderful. I got my foot examined today and thankfully nothing is broken. I had a 150pound box dropped on my foot. No fun at all. It's very swollen and several different shades of purple and blue. I have to take it easy for a couple of weeks and slowly get back into running. It's a great time to try out some new forms of exercise. I hear swimming is good. I'll keep you guys updated.

[divedragon]

I've started another multi-day fast, but this time I've purchased a meter that monitors both blood glucose and blood ketones.  I also still have the urine sticks for ketones.  I didn't initially buy the glucose strips, but since have ordered some.  There have been some interesting results.

I ate my last meal around 7:30 Wednesday night.  Thrusday night around 9:30, I took my first test with the meter and registered ketone level of 1.9 which puts me in moderate ketone level.   I decided to have a drink of vodka and Fresca to help sleep.  Friday morning around 9:30 am, I tested again and ketone level had dropped to 0.7 which is only a trace.  Coffee and water the rest of the day and again around 9:30pm I tested again and it had risen back to 2.6.  I didn't drink any alcohol prior to bed and tested again this morning and ketone level was at 3.6 (very high). 

Alcohol seemed to have a strong effect on my ketone (i.e.: fat burning) process.  In the last 24 hours, I also made bone broth, strained and defatted.  I had about a cup this evening so I'm curious as to my ketone level when I test again in 30 minutes.  I intend to test at these same times throughout the fast and see what my daily routine has on the blood ketone level.

Also, I use the urine test strips as well throughout the day and find that even though my blood ketone levels can get quite high, my urine never gets above small to moderate.  I surmise that my body is using the ketones for energy so only a low number is being expelled.  I completed 10k, 12k and 15k in steps the last 3 consecutive days and yesterday did several sets of pushups and situps and a little resistance exercise today.  I'll post an update in 30 minutes when I run my next blood ketone level.

[divedragon]

I just took my blood ketone level and it came out to 2.2 which is still within the optimal fat burn range.  I'm thinking the bone broth had some impact even though the calorie count is about 40 calories.  I'm not at all disappointed in these results.  Optimal range for fat buring is 1.3 to 3.0, so I'm well within the range.  I'm breaking my once a week weigh and will weigh again tomorrow to see if I've made any progress in the 4 days.

[divedragon]

OK so todays ketone readying is 2.2  Not bad, but my weight only shows about 0.8 lbs lost.  I suppose that should be good.  I've been IF for ovedr 6 months now, so the loss I'm experiencing is probably pure fat and not a lot of water loss.  I feel good.  No lack of energy.  No real hunger.  I get "mouth hunger" sometimes where I just feel like I need something to chew on, but no real hunger pangs in the gut.

I'm halfway through day 4 and not sure how long I will maintain this.  I'll let my body tell me when to start eating again.  I'll be testing my glucose levels as well, probably starting tonight or tomorrow night soon as I get the test strips for my meter.

[Ashley5683]

Divedragon I have a question. I genuinely don't understand this so please don't think I'm trying to start an argument. I'm not. I just want to understand. I was always told that fasting for more than one day puts your body into starvation mode and that's the one thing people who are trying to lose weight need to avoid like the plague. If that's true why are you doing it and how does it help you? Is there a method to it?

[Corney]

I don't want to start an argument, but is divedragon a Dr. of Endocrinology?  You are taking advice from someone you don't know, his results and others who do this fasting are only giving you evidence that is anecdotal and maybe it is not good for you.  You should talk to yor Dr. and tell him/her what you are doing, because they know more about you health history than anyone else.

[divedragon]

The starvation mode is that in which the metabolism slows and your body consumes muscle for protein.  This is actually more probable on calorie restriction than fasting.  Turns out that after about 48 to 72 hours of fasting, your body uses the ketones being produced to preserve muscle tissue. 

Having said that, it also depends on how much extra fat you're carrying around.  The record for fasting is 384 days straight by a Scotsman who was morbidly obese and lost from approximatel 490 lbs down to 184 lbs and after 5 years was still at 194.  Now not everyone can tolerate that length of fasting, but shorter fast are tolerated well by most people.

From my study on this subject using various clinical trials, when you fast your body under goes a change.  Within the first day or so, yes you do tend to burn muscle tissue, but once you go past a certain point 1-2 days, your body starts to perserve muscle tissue by upping your ketone production.  Almost all cells of the body use ketone bodies more efficently than glucose.  Exceptions are the red blood cells and certain brain cells (the majority of brain cells can use ketones).  For this, your liver can manufacture glucose through a process of Glycogenisis.  For the preservation of muscle, here's a study synopsis that demonstrates this:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC301893/

For a detailed explaination of muscle preservation read this:  https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-muscle-mass-fasting-part-14/

Spend some time on the above site.  Dr. Jason Fung is a leading practictioner of using fasting for his obese and even diabetic patients.  He recommends 5 and 7 day fasts for anyone who carries extra pounds, but if you're normal weight, IF of 16 to 36 hours would be the max.

So I got my glucose test strips this evening for my meter and did both a glucose blood test and ketone blood test.  My glucose is 72 and my ketone is 3.5.  70-100 is the normal range for fasting glucose levels.  Ketones are a bit high, but I've been walking through airports all day and logged almost 14k in steps.  The urine test strips show only moderate, so the difference must be getting burned for energy and making glucose to keep those levels high enough. 

I have completed 4, 24 hour periods without food.  I've had only water, coffee, tea and bone broth (22 calories on 2 days).  I feel no real hunger, but do have mouth cravings, but not unbearable.  I've done moderate exercise each day.  Last Thursday was my first day fasting and lowest step day at just over 7k.  Since then, I've had 12k, 15k and 13k today.  I'm going to try a 20 minute jog in the morning.

I'll be happy to provide you additional links and even clinical trials I've downloaded.  Corey is right, I'm not a doctor, but I've read a lot of what doctors and clinicians have tested and I'll be happy to refer you to those sites.  Don't take it from me - take it from the professionals who do the trials.  Start with Jason Fung site - who is a doctor.

[Dominique]

@Ashley5683: you may be confused by the fact @divedragon is really talking about two different nutritional strategies (or ways of eating) that are not necessarily related: intermittent fasting and a ketogenic diet. Intermittent fasting is just that: fasting from time to time. It is macronutrient-neutral: per se, it does not require you to eat, or not to eat, some particular macronutrients. A ketogenic diet is an extreme form of a low-carb diet: it requires you to only eat a very tiny amount of carbs, so as to force your body to use fat as its main fuel. Check this blog post by Peter Attia: he’s another doctor (in addition to the one mentioned by @divedragon) who’s a strong proponent of keto. In that post, he mentions the use of the same sticks for determining blood ketones.

You can do intermittent fasting without doing a ketogenic diet, and you can enjoy (if that’s the right term!) a ketogenic diet without fasting at all (eg. eating six meals a day).

As to "starvation mode", @divedragon is correct in saying it’s something that only starts to occur after 72 hours. Starvation is a word that really should be used only in relation to the unfortunate people (especially children) on this planet who are actually starving. It’s definitely not a first-world problem, and in the first-world, many people could afford to starve for extended period of times (given the amount of energy stored as fat in their bodies).

[Ashley5683]

Corney Thank you for your input but as it turns out, it was actually my doctor that suggested I try IF. I've been working alongside a professional nutritionist with more than 20 years experience in her profession. She has spent the last 5 or so years experimenting with various forms of fasting. So I think I have my bases covered.

Divedragon. Thanks for explaining that. I know they make pills that are made from ketones but I don't know if that's something I'd want to try. I also know that fasting for several days at a time is something I'd have to build up to. I run five days a week and I'm training really hard for my pt test. I'm trying to max out my scores so I don't think not feeding my body for several days would be a good idea for me. Good luck in your journey.

Dominique thanks for separating the two. I guess I did kind of get them mixed together. I do think starvation is a bad term bc I could definitely "starve" for atleast a couple of months and be fine. Lol

[divedragon]

HI Ashley,

Yes, I do not recommend taking the pills.  In the first reference I gave you, they did infuse ketones, but that was more of a controlled way to put the body into a state for their testing.

@Dominique is correct, keto vs IF are two different things. I am; however, practicing them together.  My current multi-day fasting is an attempt to reset my body, but I have been doing IF for over 6 months before attempting this multi-day fasting.  I started with 16:8, moved to 20:4 then Alternate day fasting.  I did a 5 day fast last month, but used the fasting mimick approach (500 cal/day) and I admittedly had a drink or two.  While I did lose 5 lbs, much of that was an empty digestive system.  This is why I purchased a blood test meter that does both glucose and ketones.  I'm trying to take a methodical approach to how MY body reacts, not only to this mutli-day fasting, but when I return to alternate day fasting.  I do love to eat and to cook, but I let that get out of hand. 

Short term fasting is beneficial, but as Dr. Fung discusses, the longer you go, the faster the benefits.  Besides, if Jesus fasted for 40 days, it's good enough for me!

[Corney]

How do you know Jesus fasted for 40 days? Do you really believe in Noah's Ark, the parting of the Red Sea, and that 40 days and nights of rain could cover the entire Earth, and where did all that wtater eventually go?

[Raviv]

---

@Corney wrote:

How do you know Jesus fasted for 40 days? Do you really believe in Noah's Ark, the parting of the Red Sea, and that 40 days and nights of rain could cover the entire Earth, and where did all that wtater eventually go?

---

Probably not a good idea to turn this into a religious debate.

[divedragon]

I didn't get in the jog this morning as it was so late flying in last night, I thought the sleep would do me better than exercise.  I did; however, knock out about 30 pushups and 30 deep knee bends plus a walk up 4 flights of stairs.  I'll go for a walk at lunch.

Took additional tests at 9:30.  Blood glucose was up to 92 and ketones were at 2.9.  I'm over half way through the 5th 24 hours and feeling pretty good.  Still no real hunger, just boredom that makes me want to eat.  Will lift some weights this evening to keep occupied.

Sleeping a little better too.  8 hours Saturday night.  Only 6 last night, but again, was due to late arrival.  I am thristy a lot though.  Drinking about 64 to 80 oz water a day.  At this point I can almost believe I never have to eat again - unrealistic, true.  At some point I will experience true hunger which is my signal to end the fast.  I do look forward to a glass of wine though!!! (-;

[Corney]

Sorry, you are absolutely correct.