Protein vs carbs, muscle vs fat....help!

[Bobbinyc]

I am trying to lose weight and get stronger, and lower cholesterol if possible. The more I read, the more confused I get. Will high protein help retain muscle or raise cholesterol? Will more vegetarian lower cholesterol but not support strength training? I am "older", weight has crept up more recently, just started strength training, not sure which way to go with food. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[KSS2]

I can understand you are confused, there seems to be new 'dictates' everyday doesn't there?

The first thing is you cannot out-train a bad diet. So if you want to lose weight, the main thing is to get rid of processed foods - and that includes take-aways. Shop the perimeter of the supermarket and avoid the aisles. We know that sugar is an enemy of the body particularly high fructose corn syrup. You need to check all labels as there is sugar in places you do not expect. 4gms sugar on a label is a teaspoon full .

We now know that cholesterol from food does not increase blood cholesterol - the body just makes less.Woo Hoo! Eggs are back! Including the yokes! We need fat in the diet, but not all fats are equal. Use cold prressed virgin olive oil, butter or coconut oil for cooking. Use macadamia, almond, avacado or olive oil for salad dressings. Eat avacado, nuts and butter.

Increase intake of vegetables as many colours as you can. Aim for at least 7 servings a day. Have less fruit - 2 serves a day. Protein is not only found in animal products it is in many vegetables as well. But if you are a meat eater, aim for at least three serves of fish - salmon, tuna - a week. Chicken and turkey are good choices as is kangaroo but give most processed meat bought at the deli a very wide birth!. Most people eat too much protein and too much of anything will cause you to put on weight. Calculate 0.7g  - 1g of protein per kg body weight per day.

Exercise is one of the most reliable and easiest ways to reduce the LDL cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood, burn fat , build muscle and lose weight. So make sure to do some everyday - even if it is a 30 minute walk - that is a walk not an amble round the shopping centre - it should cause some breathlessness and sweat. Include hills and stairs.

As far as weight-training goes aim for three sessions a week. If you are female you will not grow muscles like men so go as heavy as you can safely. If you are male - yes use heavy weights but make sure you have a responsible spotter - you don't want to get hurt. You need to use heavy weights but do less reps to build muscle. If you can lift the weight 12-15 times it is too light! And preferably use free weights. You have to use more muscles to stabilise yourself that using the machines that isolate certain muscle groups. Fine for rehab not so great for fitness and muscle building. And don't sacrifice form for load!

Do high intensity interval training rather than long slow cardio. It  will actually lead to faster weightloss and will preserve muscle. There is a program called Lifesprints. It is done on a spin bike and takes 20 minutes all up. You go really hard for 8 seconds then slow for 12 seconds, three times a minute for 20 minutes.You can download it from itunes. Aim for three times a week. trust me, it will hurt if you are doing it right, but the results are scientificaly prooven. Google it first to see the research. You could also do it outside through running/walking but not on a treadmill as it takes too long for the treadmill to change speed.

Get yourself a trainer to devise a program for you. Do it for 4 weeks then see the trainer again for an ugrade.

Establish a routine and good luck.

[shorty701s]

Understand that the majority of articles you read on the subject are opinions and personal anecdotes.  Honestly, you should see a nutritionist for professional advice on nutrition.  Every person's body is unique and requires different amounts of nutrients, exercise, water, etc.  For instance, I'm a vegetarian yet I'm able to strength train with good results (I eat less than 100g of protein per day).  Many folks won't be able to do that without consuming some type of meat.

With that being said, I can tell you that if you're concerned strictly with your weight, cardio (running, walking, jogging, etc) is going to be your best solution.  Weight training burns calories faster and longer than cardio, but you'll gain muscle weight while losing fat weight.  Cardio will trim fat, pack on a little muscle, improve stamina, improve lung capacity, and lower your overall heart rate.  But remember that you only burn calories for the duration of your cardio session, unlike strength training where you can burn calories up to a few days after your workout. 

If you're concerned with the physical appearance of your body and overall health and not so much strictly weight, strength training is the way to go.  Depending on how much fat you have on your body, you may see a moderate to slight weight loss, or no weight loss at all.  This is due to fat being burned versus muscle being gained (remember, muscle is heavier than fat).  But what matters the most in terms of health is your body fat, not your weight (in my opinion), because muscle tissue is a part of your weight composition.  Keep in mind though that for some people strength training takes longer to actually see results, so don't be disappointed if after a month nothing appears to have changed (it has).

I would suggest that whatever you do, add cardio to your routine at least a few days a week, even if it's moderate.  Your heart will thank you in the long-run.  Best of luck!

[SunsetRunner]

The best book to read is The Pritikin Promise, available on Amazon.

It will form a long term (lifelong) basis of optimal nutrition and exercise.

Visit their website here: https://www.pritikin.com/

There are even some great meal plans available there.

[_daniel_]

> The more I read, the more confused I get.

I hear that. I have a feeling you will get a lot of replies here full of contradictory advice. IMHO, a lot depends on where you are starting from. Do you know your current cholesterol level? Do you know much protein you already consume?  My two cents on protein--high protein diets are not healthy and you don't need extra protein to get stronger.  Track your food with something like MFP, and I believe the standard macronutrient (cards/fat/protein) recommendations they provide will serve you very well.  Their recommendations will be based on your gender, age, weight, weight loss goals, and activity level, and are very much inline with mainstream science, as distinct from fad diets or cherry picking a few studies. 

[Dominique]

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@KSS2 wrote:

Exercise is one of the most reliable and easiest ways to reduce the LDL cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood, burn fat, build muscle and lose weight.

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That's exactly what happened to me. Increasing exercise (from sedentary to about 15-20k daily steps) and losing weight (about 10 kg / 22 lbs) improved my cholesterol as follows (in a little bit more than one year):

Total cholesterol: 6.8 -> 4.6 mmol/l (should be: < 5.0)
- HDL: 1.04 -> 1.5 mmol/l (should be: > 1.0)
- LDL: 4.4 -> 2.7 mmol/l (should be: < 3.0)
Triglycerides: 3.1 -> 0.79 mmol/l (should be: < 2.0)

For those used to mg/dl, the corresponding numbers are:

Total cholesterol: 263 -> 178 mg/dl
- HDL: 40 -> 58 mg/dl
- LDL: 170 -> 104 mg/dl
Triglycerides: 275 -> 70 mg/dl

[Dominique]

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@yarddog wrote:

The best book to read is The Pritikin Promise, available on Amazon.

It will form a long term (lifelong) basis of optimal nutrition and exercise.

Visit their website here: https://www.pritikin.com/.

---

What's so special about Pritikin, except that they arrange all-inclusive stays at very high prices in their fancy resort?

[SunsetRunner]

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@Dominique wrote:

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@yarddog wrote:

The best book to read is The Pritikin Promise, available on Amazon.

It will form a long term (lifelong) basis of optimal nutrition and exercise.

Visit their website here: https://www.pritikin.com/.

---

What's so special about Pritikin, except that they arrange all-inclusive stays at very high prices in their fancy resort?

---

The book, which is what you should read, is available (cheap for you) at Amazon.

The website, has (free for you), a 10 day recipe series, and how to prepare them.

The book, if you read it, will provide a lifetime of abundant health and fitness.

It is not one of those "fad" programs, but is scientifically researched and published.

I have never gone to their resort, but have read (and followed) the instructions in

the book, and lost 80 lbs. and became a highly competitive aerobic athlete.

[KilboSenior]

@Bobbinyc  More, higher quality protien will keep you fuller (e.g. satied) throughout the day.  This is important so you will not make poor food choices (e.g. junk foods) that are more damaging to your cholesterol (and other health markers) than an increase in protien will eve be.  A sound fitness program, whatever your choice is, will improve your cholesterol also.  And yes, increased protien is needed to support muscle mass rentention or gains.

[SunsetRunner]

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@KilboSenior wrote:

@Bobbinyc  More, higher quality protien will keep you fuller (e.g. satied) throughout the day.  This is important so you will not make poor food choices (e.g. junk foods) that are more damaging to your cholesterol (and other health markers) than an increase in protien will eve be.  A sound fitness program, whatever your choice is, will improve your cholesterol also.  And yes, increased protien is needed to support muscle mass rentention or gains.

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Higher levels of protein are unnecessary, and will not help create or maintain muscle mass.

A sound program of nutrition and exercise is all that is needed.

[Heybales]

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@yarddog wrote:

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@KilboSenior wrote:

@Bobbinyc  More, higher quality protien will keep you fuller (e.g. satied) throughout the day.  This is important so you will not make poor food choices (e.g. junk foods) that are more damaging to your cholesterol (and other health markers) than an increase in protien will eve be.  A sound fitness program, whatever your choice is, will improve your cholesterol also.  And yes, increased protien is needed to support muscle mass rentention or gains.

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Higher levels of protein are unnecessary, and will not help create or maintain muscle mass.

A sound program of nutrition and exercise is all that is needed.

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You can literally find these studies all over the place, it's almost accept fact at this point that indeed enough protein can help with retaining muscle mass if NOT on a VLCD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

The difference the studies seem to be going after now is how much protein with how much deficit is the point, and for what types of workouts and what types of individuals.

Lots of variables in there. But it's been known for awhile with studies of weight lifters that higher protein is needed when losing weight (the topic of this thread BTW) compared to when maintaining or gaining muscle, if you want to retain muscle.

[SunsetRunner]

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Higher levels of protein are unnecessary, and will not help create or maintain muscle mass.

A sound program of nutrition and exercise is all that is needed.

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You can literally find these studies all over the place, it's almost accept fact at this point that indeed enough protein can help with retaining muscle mass if NOT on a VLCD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

The difference the studies seem to be going after now is how much protein with how much deficit is the point, and for what types of workouts and what types of individuals.

Lots of variables in there. But it's been known for awhile with studies of weight lifters that higher protein is needed when losing weight (the topic of this thread BTW) compared to when maintaining or gaining muscle, if you want to retain muscle.

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"it's almost accept fact at this point that indeed enough protein can help with retaining muscle mass"

Higher levels of protein are unnecessary, and will not help create or maintain muscle mass.

A sound program of nutrition and exercise is all that is needed, to provide enough protein.

Most foods have protein in them, even grains and vegetables (look it up), and that's plenty,

even for weightlifters. Extra dietary protein (more calories) or supplements, not necessary.

[_daniel_]

Here is the conclusion form the study: 

"These results indicate that approximately 2.3 g x kg(-1) or approximately 35% protein was significantly superior to approximately 1.0 g x kg(-1) or approximately 15% energy protein for maintenance of lean body mass in young healthy athletes during short-term hypoenergetic weight loss."

I think that is an interesting finding that gives me food for thought. And, I'd like to point out that the OP is:

1. Not a young, healthy athlete, or a bodybuilder. He is an "older" guy just beginning a strength training (not bodybuilding) routine.
2. He has not said what his current protein intake is.
3. He has not said that he is on a short-term, hypoenergetic weight loss program.

So I just can't see making a blanket statement that the op needs to increase his protein. As a general principle, I think yardog has it right. 

[Heybales]

Yes, many plants do have protein in them, and incomplete at that, so you don't actually get to make use of it, unless you are willing to get knowledgable about mixing and matching correctly to get some complete proteins in.

If does as haphazard as you sound like you could do it, you'll be missing whatever goal you think you have.

I'm not advocating the extreme that some push of 1 g per lb of body weight, but a meta-study did come up with a slight over-kill figure of 0.82 g per lb of body weight while in weight loss mode.

That might end up being 25 - 35%, just depends on what the total diet is.

And indeed, the study done on those most likely to have an easier time retaining muscle (young and athletic and short diet time), saw improvement with higher level, than those not in that golden box of parameters would likely benefit even more.

[SunsetRunner]

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@Heybales wrote:

Yes, many plants do have protein in them, and incomplete at that, so you don't actually get to make use of it, unless you are willing to get knowledgable about mixing and matching correctly to get some complete proteins in.

If does as haphazard as you sound like you could do it, you'll be missing whatever goal you think you have.

I'm not advocating the extreme that some push of 1 g per lb of body weight, but a meta-study did come up with a slight over-kill figure of 0.82 g per lb of body weight while in weight loss mode.

That might end up being 25 - 35%, just depends on what the total diet is.

And indeed, the study done on those most likely to have an easier time retaining muscle (young and athletic and short diet time), saw improvement with higher level, than those not in that golden box of parameters would likely benefit even more.

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The scare of "incomplete proteins" is hype from the meat and dairy industry.

Many societies were very healthy and long-lived with little or no meat products.

See "Athletic Prowess" (more than most can do) and "Food" (5% protein) in

info. on Tarahumara Indians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara_people

Your body will combine the protein components for you, as needed, and your

body will also recycle protein components that are broken down by exercise.

[youngWerther]

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See "Athletic Prowess" (more than most can do) and "Food" (5% protein) in

info. on Tarahumara Indians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara_people

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I see maize, beans, ... that's 18% and more of proteins

[SunsetRunner]

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@youngWerther wrote:

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See "Athletic Prowess" (more than most can do) and "Food" (5% protein) in

info. on Tarahumara Indians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara_people

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I see maize, beans, ... that's 18% and more of proteins

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Yes, that's right, so that proves the point of vegetables having lots of protein,

and please also read the article, under "Food", to see what it actually says ...

"Tarahumaras also eat meat, but this constitutes less than 5% of their diet".

[KSS2]

It is unfortunate that people like Haybales still make that outmoded distinction between protein types. Having been a vegetarian for 40 years plus, I can attest to the fact that you do not have to eat animal flesh to be athletic or build/retain muscle. You just have to learn how to balance foods at the beginning. Ignoring bandwagons on both side of the flesh fence, it comes down to a matter of choice and what works for you.

At the end of the day eating for weightloss must be done sensibly in order to preserve muscle. Starving the body will result in loss of muscle as the body will break muscle down before using fat stores. The body thinks it is in famine it doesn't know you want to lose a few pounds/kgs.

Muscles have to be used and challenged in order to be preserved or even grown and that means exercise. Failure to do either will mean bobbinnyc will not reach their goals. 

[Heybales]

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@KSS2 wrote:

It is unfortunate that people like Haybales still make that outmoded distinction between protein types. Having been a vegetarian for 40 years plus, I can attest to the fact that you do not have to eat animal flesh to be athletic or build/retain muscle. You just have to learn how to balance foods at the beginning. Ignoring bandwagons on both side of the flesh fence, it comes down to a matter of choice and what works for you.

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Where precisely did I make any comment that you must eat animal flesh, or make a distinction about protein types?

I said "unless you are willing to get knowledgable about mixing and matching correctly to get some complete proteins in"

Which sounds very close to your "You just have to learn how to balance foods at the beginning"

Just because animal flesh happens to have the best ratio of the amino acids for complete usage by the body doesn't mean you can't work at getting it from vegetables too, and some of the complete protein variety.

Just calm down, actually read the post, and discover I'm not saying what you think I am that you want to jump all over instantly. Actually, might take the posts in context by reading the thread.

[Heybales]

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@yarddog wrote:

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@Heybales wrote:

Yes, many plants do have protein in them, and incomplete at that, so you don't actually get to make use of it, unless you are willing to get knowledgable about mixing and matching correctly to get some complete proteins in.

If does as haphazard as you sound like you could do it, you'll be missing whatever goal you think you have.

I'm not advocating the extreme that some push of 1 g per lb of body weight, but a meta-study did come up with a slight over-kill figure of 0.82 g per lb of body weight while in weight loss mode.

That might end up being 25 - 35%, just depends on what the total diet is.

And indeed, the study done on those most likely to have an easier time retaining muscle (young and athletic and short diet time), saw improvement with higher level, than those not in that golden box of parameters would likely benefit even more.

---

The scare of "incomplete proteins" is hype from the meat and dairy industry.

Many societies were very healthy and long-lived with little or no meat products.

See "Athletic Prowess" (more than most can do) and "Food" (5% protein) in

info. on Tarahumara Indians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara_people

Your body will combine the protein components for you, as needed, and your

body will also recycle protein components that are broken down by exercise.

---

Sure they were healty without meat, and through trial and error they discovered what they better match up well so they actually had healthy bodies. With a variety before them all the time, probably not difficult.

Why do you vegetarian folks read between the lines so bad when incomplete proteins are talked about, as if that means the only solution is to eat meat.

Never once said that, just made the comment if it's vegetarian based, just know you need to do some combo stuff to get it in.

That likely comes easy to someone getting a good variety of vegetables in every day, but it's still knowledge that must be known, lest someone leaves out of their diet something useful with the 1 essential amino acid not gotten through anything else they eat.

I've seen a few vegetarians doing it for moral reasons, but they never could stand that much variety of vegetables, and didn't like beans. They were lacking.