Question about Body Composition

[elderwanda]

I have an odd question, which I'll get to in a round-about way.   I've been doing barbell training for a bit over a year now.  Looking back at my training log, I can see proof that I am stronger now than I was one year ago today.   I squat 70 pounds more, I bench press 20 pounds more.   I deadlift 55 pounds more.   I can do five chin-ups, whereas a year ago I could barely hang from the bar for five seconds.  So, quantifiably stronger.

I gained weight (mostly fat) during the past year.  That was not unexpected; I'm a 51 year old woman, and despite my best efforts, it's a lot easier for me to gain fat than muscle, and I was making an effort to eat enough to keep making gains on my lifts.  Anyway, now I am in the process of losing weight (while continuing to lift regularly).   Today, coincidentally, I weigh about the same as I did exactly one year ago.   

Here's what I don't understand.   One year ago today, I was 97.2 lbs. lean and 54.9 pounds fat, for a total of 152.1 pounds.   Today I am 97 pounds lean and 55.8 pounds fat, for a total of 152.8 pounds.   (36.1% fat and 36.5% fat, respectively)

So, despite being significantly stronger (for a middle-aged woman), my lean mass is actually less than it was a year ago.  I wouldn't expect it to be much higher, but how can not be even a tiny bit higher?  Throughout the year, I've had a handfull of DEXA scans, which always match up to the info on my Aria scale pretty accurately.  

Any thoughts?  

[Daves_Not_Here · Accepted solution]

Hi @elderwanda -- any 51 year old woman who can do 5 pull-ups, I ain't messing with, just saying.

Given your body fat is measured with both Dexa scan and your Aria scale, I tend to believe the numbers.  My bet is that you've not had much of a change in body composition. At your age and gender, I think it is difficult to significantly increase muscle mass given your hormonal profile.

My guess is your increased strength is neurological - due to your training, you probably have higher muscle fiber recruitment.

Just a guess.

[elderwanda]

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@Daves_Not_Here wrote:

Hi @elderwanda -- any 51 year old woman who can do 5 pull-ups, I ain't messing with, just saying.

Given your body fat is measured with both Dexa scan and your Aria scale, I tend to believe the numbers.  My bet is that you've not had much of a change in body composition. At your age and gender, I think it is difficult to significantly increase muscle mass given your hormonal profile.

My guess is your increased strength is neurological - due to your training, you probably have higher muscle fiber recruitment.

Just a guess.

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I'm afraid you may be right.  I do understand that early on in strength training, initial gains are due to higher muscle fiber recruitment, as you said.  But man, I've been doing this for 14 months, giving it everything I've got, and eating ALL the protein. 

It's a disappointment, because one of the many reason I've taken up lifting is to build more muscle mass, so someday my BMR will be more than its current 1230 calories per day.  If it's impossible for me to build muscle, then that won't change.  

[Baltoscott]

@elderwanda == my experience has been pretty similar. I’m a little older than you at 57, but I’ve probably got a bit of a hormanal edge as a man.  I’ve been tracking my body fat % through a cut/bulk/cut phase for over a year, eating plenty of protein, and lifting 3 days/week at first and 4 days/week for the past six months or so. My lifts have definitely improved over where I started, though the improvement has diminished as I’ve become more strict with my form ;-). 

At various weight points up and down between 160 lbs and 168 lbs my body fat percentage has been almost exactly the same.  I’m in a cut phase right now and passed 165 lbs last week.  Fat % in July 2017 (according to my scale) was 19%, in March 2018 it was 18.9%, and last week it was 18.9% again. Things were looking at better at 166 lbs, though (19.3, 19.1, and 18.9), so as you evaluate at different weights you may see slight diffferences.  

For the most part, I’ve decided that primary benefit of weightlifting as an older person is preventing the decline in muscle mass that happens to almost all of us starting at around year 30.  At least that way my BMR will stay stable instead of going down! 

[Mukluk4]

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@elderwanda wrote:

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It's a disappointment, because one of the many reason I've taken up lifting is to build more muscle mass, so someday my BMR will be more than its current 1230 calories per day.  If it's impossible for me to build muscle, then that won't change.  

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Given your BF%, instead of bulking and cutting you should really target a continuous caloric intake of +/-10% of your overall daily burn.  You will still gain muscle mass and use fat as fuel to help shape you a bit more.  It's a ton easier to track as you should be hitting a consistent weight every week (+/- 5 lbs) and you will still see gains in strength and related activities and even changes in clothing sizes.

Once you start to get into that fit range (low 30's for women) you'll need to move to a more traditional bulk/cut process to see the gains that you want.

[Dominique]

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@elderwanda wrote:

one of the many reason I've taken up lifting is to build more muscle mass, so someday my BMR will be more than its current 1230 calories per day.  If it's impossible for me to build muscle, then that won't change.  

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I would personally forget about the link between becoming more muscular and increasing BMR (and overall energy expenditure): being jacked just doesn’t let you burn that many more calories.

You will see claims on some fitness sites that 1 pound of extra muscle translates into 50 calories added to your BMR. The truth is far smaller than this, as discussed in this topic.

A couple of years ago, I calculated how much more I would burn through BMR if I were to gain 5 kg of extra muscle and no fat: that would be only 106 calories. I can burn that with far less effort: 15 minutes of brisk walking would suffice.

In this other example, I compared to extreme opposites: Arnold at his peak (225 pounds, 5% BF) and an obese guy (40% BF) of the same age, weight and height: the calculated difference in BMR was 737 calories.

As you (and @Baltoscott) said, there are many good reasons to want to become stronger and more muscular, but burning more calories is not on top of the list IMO. If someone wants to burn more calories (for instance, in order to be able to eat more, which would be me!), all you need to do is live an active lifestyle (with or without strength training). Fitbit is a great tool to that aim! 

[Dominique]

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@elderwanda wrote:

Here's what I don't understand.   One year ago today, I was 97.2 lbs. lean and 54.9 pounds fat, for a total of 152.1 pounds.   Today I am 97 pounds lean and 55.8 pounds fat, for a total of 152.8 pounds.   (36.1% fat and 36.5% fat, respectively) 

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Numeric assessments of body fat % (whether with a scale like the Aria or with DEXA scans) can be useful, but should be taken with a grain of salt IMO. I personally like to use the mirror (must be the narcissist in me!), as a complement.

If you know you are doing all the right things and are seeing progress in your lifts, why not just trust the process and carry on, even if you feel improvements are painfully slow?

[elderwanda]

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@Dominique wrote:

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Numeric assessments of body fat % (whether with a scale like the Aria or with DEXA scans) can be useful, but should be taken with a grain of salt IMO. I personally like to use the mirror (must be the narcissist in me!), as a complement.

If you know you are doing all the right things and are seeing progress in your lifts, why not just trust the process and carry on, even if you feel improvements are painfully slow?

_________

Once again, @Dominique, you are absolutely right.    I definitely look and feel better than before.  

And I'm definitely stronger, both physically and mentally.  Lifting heavy builds emotional callouses (because it can be scary) and builds all kinds of neural pathways and whatnot, because it takes a lot of concentration.  It's clear that all of that it beneficial.  

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[elderwanda]

@Mukluk4 I totally agree that slow and steady is the best way to go.  Right now I'm losing weight faster than that, mostly because I wanted to see results in a reasonable amount of time.   But I am starting to taper my calorie deficit down slooowly, now that I feel like I've had a decent head start.  Getting rid of ten pounds has taken care of a couple of annoying issues, like I can button my jeans again, and barbell squats no longer cause me to pee a bit.  (Sorry, TMI.  Things get squished with too much fat, I guess.)  I plan on taking my time losing the next ten pounds.  

Believe me, when I started out I had no intention of bulking.   My intention was to keep my weight the same.  However, at that point I did not know how much I should eat to maintain my weight, but I did know I wanted to eat about 150 grams of protein per day.  So I ate according to my appetite (which increased while lifting) and added a lot of whey powder.  I was probably eating about 2200 calories a day, and gaining at least a pound per week.  After the first ten pounds, I realized I needed to be careful, so I began to eat a bit less, and the weight gain slowed down but did not stop.   It's taken a while to figure out the food vs. training thing.  

[Daves_Not_Here]

@elderwanda - thanks for selecting my response as a solution!

I was going to make a point, but @Dominique beat me to it.  I think the whole Conventional Wisdom of "higher muscle mass increases your metabolism" is dubious at best.  I'm coming to believe that there are a number of other factors that impact metabolic rate, including macronutrient ratios and meal timing.  In particular, I'm intrigued by the notion that calorie restriction may decrease metabolic rate while fasting increases it. 

I'm also not convinced that decreased metabolism is necessarily a bad thing.  But then, I'm kind of weird in that I enjoy exploring non-intuitive hypotheses.

Five pull-ups.  I'm still intimidated.  

[elderwanda]

@Daves_Not_Here I recently read the Dr. Jason Fung book that people have mentioned on this forum.  The Obesity Code, I believe it's called?  I like what he said about the fact that we cannot control our "calories out" as much as we tend to think we can, because it seems to be true.   I was able to stay right in the middle of my healthy BMI zone without a second thought, until I had a pregancy.  Then everything just changed.  Funny how that works.  

I'm actually experimenting with meal timing myself now, as a result of reading the book.  I've always been the type to have a little snack between meals, and a little something between dinner and bedtime.  (I say "little", but I admit, sometimes it would be 500 calories worth of buttered toast, and a Guinness to wash it down.  Sometimes just a piece of fruit though.)   For the past couple of weeks I've been limiting myself to three meals a day, and making sure I have nothing after dinner, which generally means about 14 hours of fast.  It seems to be working out pretty well, although I'm trying to make sure I eat all of my allotted calories for the day, and I'm still not used to eating so much at one sitting.  Despite being stuffed after meals, I'm losing weight faster than I was before. I assume that's mostly just a bit of initial "water weight" shifting around, because that effect is slowing down.  So far so good.  

My intent is to very, very gradually increase my daily calorie intake until I stop losing weight, and then see if I can keep it there for a good long while (rathing than immediately ballooning up to my fattest-ever weight, which is what will happen if I'm not careful).

And yes, I'm very pleased with the five pull-ups.  I had hoped that they'd get easier as I weigh less, but that hasn't happened.  My strength coach reminded me that while on a calorie deficit, you will probably get a bit weaker, but a lot of that is just because lifting just feels harder and wears you out quicker.  

[Dominique]

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@elderwanda wrote:

I've been doing barbell training for a bit over a year now. Looking back at my training log, I can see proof that I am stronger now than I was one year ago today. I squat 70 pounds more, I bench press 20 pounds more. I deadlift 55 pounds more. 

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I’m not sure what kind of resistance training program you’ve been following, but it looks powerlifting-oriented (main lifts / big compound movements, heavy weights, lower reps). If so, have you considered shifting your focus (if only for a while) to a more "bodybuilding" way of training (lighter weights, higher reps, isolation movements in addition to the main lifts)? This style of training usually results in higher total volumes, which translates in more hypertrophy and could have a more noticeable impact on body composition. It’s also less harsh on joints, something that would matter for us older folks.

[Daves_Not_Here]

@elderwanda -- I'm very intrigued by The Obesity Code and the success Fung has had reversing Type II diabetes in his patients using the theories described in the book.

I just stumbled upon this detailed article by Dr. Peter Attia on the subject of "fat flux", or the mechanisms by which fat is stored and consumed by the body.  I think you'll find it may speak to the questions you've been asking.  It's interesting enough that I'll start a thread on it.

[Mukluk4]

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@Dominique wrote:

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. If so, have you considered shifting your focus (if only for a while) to a more "bodybuilding" way of training (lighter weights, higher reps, isolation movements in addition to the main lifts)? This style of training usually results in higher total volumes, which translates in more hypertrophy and could have a more noticeable impact on body composition. It’s also less harsh on joints, something that would matter for us older folks.

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It's not a bad idea but it's also very time consuming.  I tried that way for awhile and was in the gym for well over an hour. 

I cut it down to the main lifts (Squats, DL, Bench, Row, Press), kept it heavy, and can be out most days in under 40 minutes.  I sometimes add curls and cleans when I'm bored.  In addition to narrowing the focus I was able to build a home gym for about the same amount of $$ that an annual gym membership costs.

Granted, I'm working more on  performance (strength/speed) with looks as a secondary benefit, so the compound movements are a bigger bang for the buck.

[Dominique]

You make a very valid point, @Mukluk4: this style of training is definitely more time-consuming. I can see how this can be a problem for someone with a very busy job and/or family obligations, which is not my case.

[elderwanda]

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@Mukluk4 wrote:

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@Dominique wrote:

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. If so, have you considered shifting your focus (if only for a while) to a more "bodybuilding" way of training (lighter weights, higher reps, isolation movements in addition to the main lifts)? This style of training usually results in higher total volumes, which translates in more hypertrophy and could have a more noticeable impact on body composition. It’s also less harsh on joints, something that would matter for us older folks.

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It's not a bad idea but it's also very time consuming.  I tried that way for awhile and was in the gym for well over an hour. 

I cut it down to the main lifts (Squats, DL, Bench, Row, Press), kept it heavy, and can be out most days in under 40 minutes.  I sometimes add curls and cleans when I'm bored.  In addition to narrowing the focus I was able to build a home gym for about the same amount of $$ that an annual gym membership costs.

Granted, I'm working more on  performance (strength/speed) with looks as a secondary benefit, so the compound movements are a bigger bang for the buck.

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Yeah, I do the big lifts.  I'm following the Starting Strength method, with a coach.  It's similar to Stronglifts 5x5, but you do 3x5, at least in the beginning.  I'm now well beyong the Novice stage, meaning that I can no longer recover enough to get stronger each session, so my programming is now a bit more complicated that just doing three sets of five reps for each lift.  Now I have some days where I do something like 4 sets of 6 (with whatever weight is appropriately challenging for that), and other days where I do just one set of 3, and then some back-off sets.   My coach helps with the programming, and it gets tweaked here and there depending on whether I'm able to do my heavy sets or not.   Regardless of what I'm doing that day, it always takes a good two hours to complete, because I need a full five minutes of rest between most sets.  If I absolutely needed to get everything done in an hour, I'd have to change my programming and use much lighter weights, so I could recover.   I'm sure it's a combination of being female, not so young, and general lack of athletic genes.  

So far I haven't added any extra accessory work, like dumbbells or that kind of thing.  I might at some point.  Despite being a fat old broad, this is kind my "sport".   (Feels weird; I never had a sport before).   In fact, I have competed in a couple of strengthlifting events.  Here's me last January at the 2018 US Strengthlifting Federation Nationals, being the weakest person in the building:  https://youtu.be/C87ZWVPrO6U?t=3h17m33s   Next year I plan on competing again, stronger and at a lower weight class (which I'm almost at now).  

As far as being hard on the joints, that's one of the places where having a good coach has been invaluable.  She helps me keep my form on track, and as long as I do that my joints are fine.  Osteoarthritis runs in my family, so it is a concern for sure.  

[Baltoscott]

Yay, you @elderwanda for competing in strengthlifting events.  Way cool 😎 Were you the first one in that clip?

[elderwanda]

Yeah, I cued up the video to my deadlift, so that's me in the giant blueberry costume  bright green socks.   Everyone else in the room went on to lift significantly more that I probably ever will, but even so, it's fun to compete in an event like that.   For people who don't lift, it probably looks pretty dull.  But other lifters get really excited watching each other lift something that is heavy for them, whether it's an old lady struggling with a 30 pound press, or a big guy deadlifting 900 pounds, it's fun to watch someone really working at it, because you know what it feels like.  So it's very supportive and encouraging.