Deep sleep tracking changes if I add more sleep

[rockpool]

Several times I have noted that the sleep curve for the whole night changes if I add more sleep later in the morning.

Last night I slept particularly badly as I was trying out a new device to minimize my snoring. 

Around four thirty I decided to remove the annoying device and get out of bed for a while. During the time I was up I checked my sleep tracking. It turned out I had actually slept for between 4 and 5 hours but had zero (!) minutes of deep sleep. Typically I get all my deep sleep, which is normally between 16 and 50 minutes, during the first hours of the night. After a while I went back to bed and managed to get all in all an extra three hours sleep (without the device this time). 

When I checked my sleep tracking next time it claimed I had 16 minutes deep sleep around 1 o'clock. My question: How could the fact that I added three hours sleep towards the end of the night increase my deep sleep several hours earlier? 

Moderator edit: format. 

[Upnorth_oak]

My Fitbit Alta HR and Fitbit app... Changes several parts of sleep cycle after the fact. Including wake time that I took screen shot of. 

Adds sleep time when I did not go back to sleep (but it said I did!). Added deep sleep time. Adjusted falling asleep time, took off some REM time in order to add deep sleep. Deleted a wake event, which was when I actually got up. As someone using this as one of my tools to battle insomnia, this is deeply disturbing. 

[Upnorth_oak]

This is not solved!!

[Upnorth_oak]

This happens to me even when I don't go back to sleep. I'm meditating or drinking coffee and it logs me as Sleeping and even erases my awake event! 

[Rich_Laue]

The solution only pertains to the original poster, if the solution does not work for users who have posted later, it probably would have been better to start a desperate thread. 

I would be surprised when manually setting a sleep period will show the same data as when letting Fitbit decide. For one reason sleep stages should be removed. 

[rockpool]

I am not sure I understand what you mean, Rich Laue. Why would everything (deep sleep, REM, everything) change when you edit sleep for one brief period of time at the beginning or the end of the night? If (according to Fitbit) I was sound asleep (deep sleep) at some point during the night, why would it be normal that Fitbit suddenly decides I was not in deep sleep at that time, just because I have edited wake up or falling asleep time?

Do we really have to start a new topic to receive an answer to this question?

As I said before. I long since stopped editing my sleep, as I believe there is some kind of bug in the way Fitbit tracks sleep stages. In my own case I am satisfied however, that my Charge 2 fairly well tracks my falling asleep and waking up time as well as the periods I have been awake during the night, i.e. provided I wait a while before I check it in the morning. If I am to quick my Fitbit sometimes seems to get confused.

[Rich_Laue]

@rockpool I never said I understand the logic, just repeating what is found in the user manual and on the Fitbit Help site it clearly States that manually added sleep recordings will not have sleep stages. 

This may have recently changed but in the past people complained that stages disappeared when modifying a sleep record, while others did not see this happen. 

[Upnorth_oak]

In my situation, my Fitbit Alta HR seems to not be able to tell if I am asleep or not, especially in the mornings. It has also has edited my information from earlier graphs even though I did not go back to sleep (it only thought I did).  One time I woke at 6:20.  I took a screen shot and texted it to myself because I am tracking my sleep.  I then meditated and made and drank some coffee.  Fit bit decided I was still sleeping and logged this time as REM, AND it retracted the 6:20 wake time that it had graphed earlier.  It also lengthened the time of deep sleep from earlier in the night, and edited my falling asleep time, as compared to the earlier screen shot graph that I had taken at 6:20.  I have a screen shot of this second graph.  THEN it kept going as if I was asleep while I was definitely up and awake for the day.  It had me going from awake to light sleep three times for another two hours.If it can't tell when I am asleep vs totally up and awake; all of the data is useless, in my opinion.  If I can't sleep, I often lie still with a mediation audio going.  This is the reason I bought the Fitbit, so I could tell my actual amount of sleep without having to watch the clock. I've decided there is no way the device can tell "meditation" or lying still trying to fall asleep from actual sleep, if it can't even tell the difference in my making breakfast versus sleeping. I'll keep it for logging steps taken, but given the situation, I have to question the accuracy of that part of the app/device as well. 

[rockpool]

Rich Laue, Ok, I guess I haven't read the manual thouroughly enough. But if the manual says that you will have no sleep stages if you edit wake up or falling asleep time, why does Fitbit still show sleep stages (i.e.completely changed sleep stages)? 

And I guess the manual refers to the edited period of time. It is perfectly normal that Fitbit cannot produce detailed sleep for something that Fitbit has not recognized. However, it is not logic that the periods Fitbit previously recorded should all change because I edit a completely different period.

[Rich_Laue]

@rockpool see the end of my previous post. Just a reminder, I am simply a Fitbit user with no insight on the development of Fitbits. 

@Upnorth_oak users have discovered that they need to be up and walking for some period of time before doing a sync. Some user have discovered that with a forced sync, Fitbit decides that the wearer is now awake. 

Your meditation period of being still could easily be detected as sleeping, and any sleep periods with less than an hour will be merged. 

My thought to workaround this would be to try a sync after you have done some movements and before the meditation period. 

[rockpool]

Rich Laue, I am very grateful to you that you jump in to assist when Fitbit doesn't, and I believe you know a lot of useful things about how the devices work. I still remember it was you who made me realize that it is not a good idea to check the Fitbit the minute you wake up, especially not  in the middle of the night if you intend to sleep some more, because this tends to confuse the device. 

 The total change of the Fitbit sleep recording when you edit falling asleep or wake up times happened when I started this topic a long time ago. Others have claimed it still happens. Personally I have long since stopped editing sleep. It would be nice, though, to receive some update/explanations from Fitbit.

[Rich_Laue]

@rockpool you could tag a moderator, or contact Fitbit, or keep your fingers crossed that a moderator sees this post. This is a community forum set up for the community to help out each other. 

[rockpool]

Ok, Rich, I got that, thanks for your help!

[Jordengrant]

Hi, I'm not sure if you'll see this but what was your deep sleep tracking before the apnea test? I sleep on avarage 12 minutes of deep a night and things are starting to get depressing!

[topannuity]

Hi Jorden - Not sure if you wanted rockpool to reply, but since I'm on this thread too, I'll post my 2c.

I've done extensive Excel mapping of my Fitbit data versus HRV device data etc etc. (You can look up my profile posts). The bottom line IMHO is that Fitbit has NO WAY other than using GPS location tracking for when we move through "space" and your heartrate (heartbeat) measured like any $10 oximeter to determine our behavior or activity level. That's the facts. There is no other science to the Fitbit device.

Once that data is collected Fitbit attempts to model our individual outcomes based on norms and protocols gathered from the general population. Now I've read posts where users swear their Fitbit synced perfectly with the results of a hospital or clinic overnight polysomnography stay.

Perhaps that's true (for them). Nevertheless, I've logged thousands of hours of my own reporting that I was awake laying in bed, or sitting still in a recliner fully awake listening to music, and Fitbit assigned this activity to light or deep sleep or even REM on occasion. That's simply how this works. If you don't trigger a GPS-detectable movement and your heart rate is constant, you will be tagged as asleep.

So, reluctantly, I no longer accept my Fitbit data other than to note how many out-of-bed awakenings (mostly bathroom stops) it recorded a night. And frankly, I stopped logging that metric after noticing that the 7-day average number of times I get out of bed is relatively constant (4x) over months at a time.

Hope this helped. I wouldn't stress over Fitbit data considering how primitive the device is at the moment. Perhaps now that Google took over, Fitbit will morph into something more reliable. Stay tuned...

[rockpool]

Jorrdengrant, I can't remember the Fitbit recordings from before my sleep study since it is a long time ago. I do remember though, that I made a post in another topic at the time about the fact that the sleep study gave a totally different result with regards to deep sleep. The somnograph said my deep sleep had been entirely normal, whereas Fitbit (for the same night), showed a very poor result. The number of deep sleep periods was wrong, and the timing of the deep sleep Fitbit claimed I had had was wrong too. 

Others have also pointed out that their tests carried out at a clinic showed very different results from the ones given by Fitbit - especially with regards to deep sleep and REM sleep. 

[Jordengrant]

To be honest that's music to my ears ( as it instills a little bit of hope) I live in the uk and I'm really having trouble finding a sleep clinic as I need to clarify what's going on....pretty much all I think about and I'm beginning to become snappy with my family!



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

[Jordengrant]

I've noticed that if I wake at say 5am check the app and see I've logged 15 mins deep sleep, then fall back asleep for 30 mins the period of deep sleep has gone to like 33 minutes which is strange. It's like the data is just being stretched to accommodate the extra bit of sleep I log after checking it.



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

[Rubytuesday88]

Same here. Maddening. If I edit to add sleep because it somehow got it wrong, it always seems to shorted the amount and REM and deep sleep which is what I am interested in. I had cut down on editing, but last night it was so off that I tried again and got the same frustrating changes, so I too will just stop editing.

I see this is an old post. Have you learned anything new?

[rockpool]

No, nothing new. I never edit sleep time, so I don’t know if it works now
or not.--

Moderator edit: removed personal information. 

[wytchbaby]

This is not what I have found, I always look after being awake way longer than 5 minutes, and mine is always wrong! It never counts the sleeping on the couch, only when I go to bed, and then it always takes time away from my deep sleep. I think a half hour nap or an hour should be counted, so the next day I always add more time, and then deep sleep time always goes down instead of up. It’s not accurate at all in my opinion.