Deep Sleep and How to Get More

[WavyDavey]

As someone who has been interested in deep sleep, I was pleased when Fitbit rolled out the sleep stages. Over the last few weeks, my deep sleep has plummeted, and I've tried a few things to improve it. One in particular has worked really well, that I'd like to share.

But first, what is deep sleep, and why is it important, especially to people engaging in fitness. Deep sleep is the most mysterious part of sleep, because we're not awake, we're not consciously dreaming. Really, there's not much going on at all, mentally. And that's important, to give us a break from thinking so we can process and integrate our experiences.

In terms of physical health, deep sleep is critical. Potent hormones such a GH and IGF-1 are released during deep sleep. These hormones are linked to physical health as well as performance. When I don't get enough deep sleep, my strength workouts really suffer. Interestingly enough, getting a small amount of overall sleep affects me less than getting 8 hours of sleep, but very little deep sleep. That's how important it is.

I read a lot of articles and papers online about getting more deep sleep. But almost all of them were just generic advice on getting more and better sleep. They didn't focus on deep sleep itself, which is what I'm trying to improve. So I began experimenting...

Since deep sleep is a kind of oblivion (from the mind's perspective), there's no real conscious way to make it happen. While there are many tricks to falling asleep, or inducing dreams, the realm of deep sleep seems less traveled.

So what's worked for me? First, is acknowledging I can't consciously put myself into deep sleep, because the very nature of deep sleep is unconscious. This may seem obvious, but it was an important realization to me. Because deep sleep occurs near the beginning of the sleep cycle, before REM, I feel the "getting to sleep" portion of the night is the most important aspect of getting deep sleep.

Recently, when I can't sleep, I've taken to just getting out of bed, have some water, read a little. Just forget all about getting to sleep. Last night I went to sleep when ready, instead of when I should. I got less than 6 hours sleep, but my deep sleep was greatly increased. Today's workout I hit two personal records (squat and overhead press), and felt fine afterwards, despite not much sleep. It will be interesting to see the relationship between amount of overall sleep compared to deep sleep. For now, my experience says the amount of deep sleep is critical to physical performance.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

Edit 2/24/2018:

Compilation of tips and links from the first 8 Pages:

Source: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gartenberg_the_brain_benefits_of_deep_sleep_and_how_to_get_more_of_it?...

There's a great guy Shawn Stevenson. He's written a book called Sleep Smarter - it's well worth a read. Also you can check him out on You Tube

Terry Gross on Fresh Air recently interviewed sleep scientist Matthew Walker.  Walker is the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.  He has written a book titled Why We Sleep.  Terry Gross' interview with him was most interesting.  Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-...

There are some other suggestions for improving sleep on the pages linked below. I think there are a few that may be questionable as to their effectiveness. But what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the role of diet and gut health may play in promoting enough deep sleep. That being said, I feel as though the line can be blurred here between what's specifically helpful for deep sleep vs sleep in general (light and REM stages).  https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/how-to-increase-deep-sleep https://selfhacked.com/blog/methods-to-fall-asleep-insomniac/

Stress

Gratitude list

Write down worries

I think in various ways we’re all saying the same thing - mental stress. Getting 10k steps isn’t just about getting the steps, it’s about carving out that time for yourself. So is disconnecting from electronics. When I take care of my mental self, I get deep sleep. I barely got any exercise over Christmas, but my sleep was excellent because my anxiety was low. That’s going to be different for each of us, but I think the core of it is the same - making time toward the end of each day to spend time doing the thing that makes us happy. For me, it’s keeping my caffeine consumption low during the day and then reading a book before I fall asleep. For someone else, it’s digging in the dirt. But what I heard on this forum is a lot of anxiety and not a lot of time carved out of the day to take care of our inner selves. That’s the greatest treat we can give ourselves these days - the gift of time for ourselves. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that has been the biggest thing for me, more than what I eat or drink or if I use F.lux on my devices (I do). I know that’s easier said than done, but I hope my experience helps someone get better sleep tonight

Calm app and meditation

Timings

I've read and heard from more than a few sources that getting to bed before 10pm is recommended They say if you go to bed at 10am, you get the optimum sleep and recovery etc

Having a set routine is really critical for the body to know when to shut down and repair

Tools

Linking up the sleep stage monitoring so that the deep sleep enhancing sounds are played through a small speaker at the relevant periods so as to increase the effectiveness of the deep sleep in regenerating the body and mind Since deep sleep occurs mostly at the beginning of sleep, I'm going to try falling asleep listening to some delta waves. You can use anything that will play music. If you search youtube for "delta wave sleep" or "binaural beats", there are lots of selections to choose from

Ear plugs

Using electronics at night definitely has an effect on sleep and deep sleep. I've used a freeware program on android and windows called F.lux. What it does is adjust the color spectrum of these devices to more naturally follow the changes of day and night. Since then, I picked up a pair of blue-blocking glasses, that I wear while watching TV at night. They work really well

Pillow spray

Memory foam bed topper

Vitamins

No vitamin B apart from morning time

Magnesium

Vitamin D

I am trying a new supplement to help with falling asleep. It's called ZMA--and is zinc, magnesium and B6. I haven't changed any other aspect of sleep hygiene, to hopefully isolate the effect of ZMA. After two days of taking it at bedtime, my deep sleep % has gone from 10 to 18. Maybe someone else will get similar results?

Try Prebiotica before you go to sleep. I saw this in a BBC documentary about sleep. It can push your deep sleep up about 9%

Various  

No alcohol (I only had about 2-4oz on occasion at night, but this really affected deep sleep), no screen time 2 hours before bed.  Stress also plays a big factor - I think it's actually the worse contributor to lack of deep sleep

I've made a few adjustments that seem to have increased my deep sleep time. 1. Shutting off the screens about 90 minutes before bed. 2. Drinking homemade "sleepy tea" with chamomile, valarian, lavender, hibiscus, red raspberry leaf and stevia. 3. Downloading the "Calm" app and doing at least a 5 minute meditation from their sleep options right before falling asleep. Also, having a routine that I am sticking to, which includes these things, plus writing a gratitude list and putting on on my humidifier/diffuser with lavender essential oil in it and reading if there's time. I managed to increase my deep sleep from about 8% to 16%, so something is working

I suffered from severe insomnia for most of my life.  Over the last 10 years I’ve been able to get that under control using various tricks, and I’m happy to see that my new Fitbit confirms that, averaging 1.5 hours of deep sleep. I’m happy to share in case it can help someone else, but these are well known tricks. - In bed by 10:30 most nights (my usual was midnight to 1am) - No wine/juice caffeine in the evening on weekdays (after 4 for caffeine). - No talking about work/problems after 8:00 - Enough physical activity during the day (I’m a bit of a couch potato, hence the new Fitbit! ) - No electronics after 9:30 (tv seems ok for me but it’s not in my bedroom) - Eliminated sources of light in my bedroom (chargers, iphone, window) - Up by 10 max on weekends to maintain a sleep pattern

[Chardy19]

This is fascinating and of course unique to each person. 

I've had my Fitbit about a month. In that time I've noticed I get more deep sleep when I go to bed later and am really tired, or when I take melatonin.  

[Malivan66]

i have attempted many of these techniques but somehow it feels like insomnia has become my best friend.

[Chardy19]

I thought my sleep was poor because I'm always tired, but after reading this forum I'm realizing it's not so bad after all. I'm sorry, @Malivan66  that you're having to cope with such a debilitating "friend".

@

[ParallaxView]

If you are always tired, you might have Hashimoto's thyroid disease (I have it), or low hormones.  I also weren't on testosterone and progesterone, which made it easier to sleep.  I like to recommend the book "The End of Alzheimer's" by Dale Bredesen.  The book tells you what your hormone levels should be at to avoid Alzheimer's.  It gives additional advice as well.  There are a lot of really bad doctors out there, so you might have to shop around.  

I don't know what country you are in, but another book on extending your life called TRANSCEND by Ray Kurzweil, recommends finding a doctor who is s functional medicine specialist or a member of the American Academy of Anti Aging a4m.com

[WavyDavey]

I saw an interesting article about how our brains flush toxins during deep sleep. I'm reading more about how important deep sleep is to our neurological systems.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/31/775068218/how-deep-sleep-may-help-the-brain-cle...

[Aismoc]

Thank you for that article.

[Letmein]

I do have an issue with this type of articles. For one, if there was a direct link between poor sleep and Alzheimer, it would long have been established, so although it might be a factor like many, I don't think we can infer that poor deep sleep increases the risk of Alzheimer's especially without even considering whether we are talking about chronic poor sleep over decades or any period later in age.

Also writing 'The finding also suggests that people might be able to reduce their risk of Alzheimer's by ensuring that they get high-quality sleep' really show the lack of understanding of insomnia because there is no such thing as 'insuring' good sleep. As a matter of fact the more one tries to take control of it, the more likely they are to do exactly the opposite.

We can't control our deep sleep and that's the trick, the more we switch off, chill out, lose control, the more likely we are to up the percentage of deep sleep except that those who have a problem in the first place are those most likely to need to be in control in their lives to ensure it doesn't collapse. It's a vicious circle but we have to remember that there are plenty of us.

My grandparents and parents do far had crazy busy lives and I certainly remember both my parents complaining of poor sleep through their lives. They are now in their mid 70s and no sign at all of any problem mentally so no panic, we are not all doomed. 

[LittlebrookLyn]

I agree it's not good to take notice of these kinds of articles and all they will do is make people worry that lack of sleep is going to cause even more issues!  My mother is 96, she has had insomnia since her 30's and has in fact been dependant on sleeping meds for this since that age, which obviously after a short while stop working, so she goes to bed about 1am and is awake around 4am, can't see she gets a very good quality of sleep and she doesn't nap in the daytime either.  She has more energy than people half her age too so insomnia has certainly not done her any harm.

[ParallaxView]

We can improve our deep sleep.  That's why we are all here.  There are ways to reduce Alzheimer's risk.  If you don't want to look into it fine, but you should respect that other people do.

[ParallaxView]

WavyDavey, you should check out "The End of Alzheimer's" by Dale R. Bredesen.  He has lots of great information on improving your sleep.  I think I've mentioned it, some of it, but hormone replacement is on there.  I didn't know it, but talking run much melatonin cream cause you to walking and not be able to go back to sleep.  He recommends magnesium thronate, but I find magnesium glycinate works better.  Also zinc glycinate.  If I stop talking zinc glycinate and magnesium glycinate, my deep sleep goes down.  I find this interesting because Dr Bredesen says one of the causes of Alzheimer's is having a higher ratio of copper than zinc https://youtu.be/DbEpChDbEsk

[WavyDavey]

@LetmeinI understand your points. I took the article in a very general sense--that reinforces that some of the body's healing mechanisms tend to come out during deep sleep.

You also point to an interesting thing--that during the day we must exercise an amount of control over ours lives, and during sleep, we really lose that control. The best I think we can hope for is to create habits in non-sleeping hours that support our natural healing.

@ParallaxView, thanks for the suggestion. I will look into it.

[Chardy19]

@ParallaxView I've already been tested for Hashimoto's and don't have it, thankfully. I'm sorry you're dealing with it. Not sure what you mean by "I also weren't on testerosterone and progesterone." 

I think I'm just middle-aged. Lol. 

[Letmein]

Finding the right balance between carrying out our duties during the day and ensuring we get a good night sleep is the challenge.

I am pretty sure that my DS is deeply affected by the time I spend on screen. I've already applied s no screen time after 7pm but it's not enough. My best night sleep tend to be Sundays and after having been off work. The problem is my job is screen heavy and there's no way to change that. Changing jobs is not an option at this stage of my life, I tried and it was a disaster. I have found the right balance with income, travelling, reduced stress,g relationships etc...

In my case and probably thousands of women in the world, this is all caused by the chaos of the menopause and the adrenalin rushes that come with it, so hopefully it will get gradually better. 

[kentskyo]

if you already wear glasses, you may look into the anti blue coatings on lenses. If not, the blue light blocking glasses. It should diminish the effects of screens on melatonin cycles. 

[GraceGFitbit]

Hey everybody ! 

As a person who sleeps bad I think it is great that you share all that information including that article @WavyDavey. It's really interesting, no doubts why sleep good is so important for young children.  

[AntoniaG]

Why would a link have “long been established”? Surely scientific enquiry is ongoing and this is how our knowledge about various maladies is advanced. 
Enjoyed your story about your grandmother. I know two seniors in their 90s who are as fit and articulate as any 40-year-old. One sleeps short hours and the other is on sleeping pills. There are always those who, for no apparent reason, buck the trend. I got ONE minute of deep sleep last night and this is a pattern for me. One to 10 minutes out of 7.5 hours. It is driving me crazy. 

[AntoniaG]

I am sorry, I mixed your reply with someone else’s (not enough deep sleep 🤫).

[LittlebrookLyn]

There are some nights I get zero minutes of deep sleep, my average at the moment is 5% but until recently it was 8%, which still isn't much.  I feel exhausted today yet apparently I had 12% deep sleep last night!

[ParallaxView]

When I first joined this group, which was started by @WavyDavey , I only got 10 to 14 minutes of deep sleep prey night.  I now usually hit 1 hour and sometimes I get as much as 1:30.  There is hope for you, but people need to work through all the suggestions on here.  I keep recommending Dale Bredesen's book "The End of Alzheimer's" because it has a great selection on improving your sleep.  A lot of those recommendations can be found here, like WavyDavey suggested light blocking curtains.  I find ear plugs are a great help because I'm a light sleeper.

I have to confess, I also stated using indica (it's legal where I live) in order to give up melatonin.  I still can't sleep when I'm on my period though, so I take 1.25 mg melatonin and diphenhydromine when I'm on my period.  I get great deep sleep from this.  You will become resistant to anything you take all the time, so it's good to rotate any sleeping aids.

[AntoniaG]

A very interesting thread. I sleep 7.5 hours but get maybe 7 minutes of deep sleep on a good night. I usually feel well rested so this remains a puzzle to me as well as being frightening due to all the new info on AD/ dementia. My heart rate  is also very high. I don’t have caffeine after noon, Nothing sugary ever, I put in well over 10,000 steps virtually every day with my dog and a 40-minute powerwalk. I meditate and am not stressed. Going to bed at 9:30 doesn’t help any. I take 3 mg of melatonin at 8 pm. I am reading Shawn’s book and applying various suggestions, none of which have helped. So frustrating!

Sent from my iPhone