05-27-2016 09:21
05-27-2016 09:21
I'll be 63 next week, and I decided to set a crazy goal for myself. Set the world marathon record for my age when I'm either 65 or 66. Some people say not to broadcast a goal. Others say it should be broadcast.
The current record is about 2:41:00.
My training program is simple. It's what I call the "Non-Destructive Adaptation Model." I'll run with a metronome starting at a slow stride rate and increase it by .06 a day. Each day, I'll increase the miles by about .01. I'm currently able to "jog" very slowly for an hour and fifty minutes and do it each day except for normal rest days. The way the numbers work out, I'll run for about the same time each day until the big date.
The basis of my training theory comes from the Maffetone Method. I keep the average heart rate for my runs between 180 minus my age to 10 beats below that. (110-117). This will force the rest of my cardiovascular system to develop as my pace and distance slowly improves.
I'm using the Surge coupled with a Nike App to track my training. I have day by day goals until the marathon.
I'll run the Denver Marathon since the air is thinner and easier to run through. I live at close to the same altitude.
08-25-2016 16:58
08-25-2016 16:58
I realize 9:32 is an optimistic goal for December 2. The distance isn't a problem as I am still fresh at the end of 6.7 miles. I've made plans to run a 150 minutes on Saturday and taking the day after as a rest day. I'll see how it turns out. I'm hoping to get a little over 10 miles. The long weekend run may become part of the regular routine.
My main objective will be to increase the tempo to 160 beats per minute by Dec 2. That's only a quarter beat a day. I'll front load this by increasing a beat every other day until that becomes difficult. My calculations showed I'd be running a 9:32 pace at 160 bpm, which is exactly the time to beat.
(Reads your response.) I agree 12 minutes is a more realistic goal, and I won't risk any injuries trying to do more. If most of needed improvement is neuromuscular, then a faster time may be possible
08-28-2016 09:49 - edited 08-28-2016 10:04
08-28-2016 09:49 - edited 08-28-2016 10:04
Breakthrough Run
Today was my 50 minute short run day. I went to Planet Fitness to lift weights for an hour before going on the run. Usually, my splits on the second 50 minutes of a 100 minute run are better than the 50 minute runs, so this is especially encouraging.
From the start, I've been keeping a record of my splits and making this chart. Initially, I was basically walking with my arms up with a cadence of 127. I increased the cadence slowly to 130 before the break from June 9th to Aug 11. There was also a five month break in from January to May while I wrote a book and got lazy.
On August 11th, I increased the cadence to 133 and have increased it more rapidly than before to 139 today. Something clicked today and my step length suddenly got an inch longer from previous runs.
My average heart rate was 105 today, which is on the low end of normal. The calories burned per mile dropped to 131.
This is the sudden improvement I've been hoping for. Even before today, I was well ahead of the original projected progress line to run the marathon.
08-29-2016 06:12
08-29-2016 06:12
To be completely fair, if you are concerned with burning fat, a 2:40 marathon is probably not in the cards. At that level and age, not getting injured and just achieving that speed for that amount of time should be your main concern.
@GershonSurge wrote:Shipo,
I agree with your skepticism. If I didn't know about the Maffetone method, I'd train quite differently.
The Maffetone method attracts me because the emphasis is on burning mostly fat (about 70%) and less carbs (about 30%). This only happens at the lower heart rates. This allows for greater endurance. It also forces all the systems in the body to develop before getting to faster speeds.
I don't adjust my pace if my heart rate goes a little high. Most runs, it gets back in the range by itself. If it stays high the whole run, I consider taking a rest day.
Mostly, I'll use a metronome to follow the planned stride rate for the planned distance and see what happens.
08-29-2016 07:58
08-29-2016 07:58
thom14 wrote:
To be completely fair, if you are concerned with burning fat, a 2:40 marathon is probably not in the cards. At that level and age, not getting injured and just achieving that speed for that amount of time should be your main concern.
Welcome to the forum.
I'm no longer concerned with burning fat to lose weight as I'm at my optimum weight. The reason for burning fat is the body only holds about two pounds of carbs in the muscle cells and liver. That's about 3,500 calories, which is exactly what it will take for me to run a marathon. If I train to maintain a heart rate at or below 117, I'll burn 70% fat and 30% carbs creating a large energy reserve.
People accept age related restrictions too easily and translate their perceptions of what it's like to grow old to too little exercise, too much sitting, gaining too much weight, etc. Sixty-three feels young to me, and I don't see any limitations as long as I train intelligently to avoid injuries.
Since you are new to this thread, I will say most likely I'll plateau somewhere before my goal. However, because of the way goal setting works, I am not thinking about this possibility.
09-01-2016 07:27
09-01-2016 07:27
@GershonSurge wrote:Since you are new to this thread, I will say most likely I'll plateau somewhere before my goal. However, because of the way goal setting works, I am not thinking about this possibility.
This is the genius quote of the day for me. Something I'll be considering all morning. The reason so many plans/goals fail (mine included) is because I have a predetermined expectation of result. When the goal is well thought out, action based, then just keep peforming the actions and the results will be what they be! If there is a plateau- oh well- you're much further ahead than if you spent 2 more years coming up with a marginally better plan.
09-01-2016 17:57 - edited 09-01-2016 18:10
09-01-2016 17:57 - edited 09-01-2016 18:10
@Pintofool wrote:
@GershonSurge wrote:Since you are new to this thread, I will say most likely I'll plateau somewhere before my goal. However, because of the way goal setting works, I am not thinking about this possibility.
This is the genius quote of the day for me. Something I'll be considering all morning. The reason so many plans/goals fail (mine included) is because I have a predetermined expectation of result. When the goal is well thought out, action based, then just keep peforming the actions and the results will be what they be! If there is a plateau- oh well- you're much further ahead than if you spent 2 more years coming up with a marginally better plan.
Thanks @Pintofool,
There is more to this goal setting. If you are familiar with student T-testing, then you know it takes 25 points to make a good prediction. Therefore, I don't change anything for 25 training days unless it's absolutely necessary. I started by running the same amount of time each day. Then I tried doing 100 minute and 50 minute days with weight lifting. I found I progress just as rapidly with less chance for injury. If the opposite occurred, I'd have gone back to the original baseline method. At the same time, I increased the rate I raised the cadence. Both changes have worked well, and I'm beating the original projections by well over 1,000 miles of training.
09-03-2016 19:25 - edited 09-03-2016 19:26
09-03-2016 19:25 - edited 09-03-2016 19:26
Something unexpected happened during the last two or three runs. My landing has become what I'll call a "soft touch." My heels touch lightly, but there is no risk of heel injury. The front of my foot lands softly without a hint of slapping. Downhill became easier, and my downhill times improved quickly.
I've been listening to a book and told my subconscious to run as slowly as possible at each stride rate. My subconscious has different ideas and is running faster. I'm seeing miles under 14 minutes now without any effort. My stride length is getting longer, but I'm not forcing it. My heart rate is still slow at an average of about 106.
The next system that needs to develop seems to be my lungs. I'm getting slightly winded on the long uphill. My mental coach tells me to take some triactin (Triactin like a man) and deal with it. I may take a day during the next week to run a shorter route that hits that hill several times.
I've drawn my focus inward to concentrate on improving my stride rate. If my calculations are correct, I should be able to run a 9:32 pace at a stride rate of 160. My 100 minute runs should be over 10 miles. From there, a half-marathon is an easy goal.
I have three months to increase my stride rate by 20 steps per minute. The first five should be easy. I'd like to leave a couple weeks at the end to let my mind figure out how to increase my stride length at 160.
If my pace for the half-marathon ends up around 12 minutes/mile as @shipo suggested, that's fine, too.
09-12-2016 11:31
09-12-2016 11:31
Avoiding Dangerous Overtraining
@shipo commented he knew some people in his running circles who developed heart problems while on a particular type of diet. This post is not to discuss diet; it is how to detect overtraining. Historically, people have set world records on all sorts of diets. This post is also not to recommend a particular type of training as people have done well with all sorts of training. The purpose is to relate a method to detect overtraining before it becomes dangerous. It is based on The Great Book of Endurance Training by Dr. Phil Maffetone.
Dr. Maffetone recommends training at a heart rate less than 180 minus a person's age. He states that below this rate, an athlete burns mostly fat in an aerobic manner. Above this level, the athlete transitions to burning mostly carbs. It's not important to agree or disagree with this number. The important concept is the Max Aerobic Function Test (MAF).
Any endurance runner should be able to run five miles without stopping. If not, they are probably not an endurance runner yet. I use the term "running" loosely as anything where a person puts their arms up. I call the slow pace "old man running."
A person should run five miles while getting a split each mile and keeping the heart rate less than 180 minus their age. This will feel excrutiatingly slow to most people. Ideally, they'd measure their heart rate each mile, but realistically, I've found an average for the run works well. Then I check the chart for any big anomolies. The idea is if a person is not over-training, they will be able to run faster at the same heart rate. The test should be done monthly.
Because of my training plan, I do a MAF test each day, but I'll show a couple about three weeks apart.
I alternate 100 minute days and 50 minute days. I use a metronome and gradually increase the tempo each day. I gradually increased the distance from 6.53 to 7.01 during this three weeks. I only log whole miles on this table.
Looking at each column, notice the times for each mile improved significantly. Looking across, I tend to run negative splits because of the terrain and because I don't really warm up until I run three miles. Although times usually improve, sometimes, there can be long plateaus.
The other indicator Dr. Maffetone suggests for those of us without access to a lab is resting heart rate. Together, they will detect most cases of overtraining at a minor level where a few days of rest will resolve it.
I would include an undesired weight loss in the equation. I set 170 to 172 as my desired range. If I go below, I reduce my exercise and increase my intake. If I hit 165, I'll full stop, take a few days off, and gain five pounds. In my opinion, this is reasonable advice for any way of eating.
For those who are losing weight and exercising, I'd set a limit for weekly weight loss.
09-12-2016 13:23
09-12-2016 13:23
@GershonSurge, a few comments:
Note 1:
Note 2:
Note 3:
09-13-2016 04:30 - edited 09-13-2016 04:32
09-13-2016 04:30 - edited 09-13-2016 04:32
One of the reasons I started the Maffetone method is to see if it really works. I also have skepticism about heart rates.
I'm basically doing what you recommend for beginning runners with the addition of the metronome and a heart rate monitor. I like using the metronome as it directs my pacing for the whole run, and each run feels the same as the last even though the distance and speed are gradually increasing. A metronome wouldn't be useful where there are steep hills or uneven terrain such as you find on trails.
My progress has been significantly better than I originally predicted, so I'll keep using this method until it stops working. Eventually, I'll start doing one mile intervals on my short days to increase my pace. That will only happen when I encounter a long plateau.
If I get a chance later, I'll give an update on my progress.
Thanks for all the good info. I read your post about a dozen times.
09-13-2016 06:15
09-13-2016 06:15
@GershonSurge, the whole metronome training method has bugged me since well before Maffetone championed it in his training recommendations. The thing is, I cannot remember the last time I worked with a beginning runner who had a natural cadence more than two or three beats either side of 160 per minute when on a training run. To my, possibly simplistic, way of thinking, why mess with what is already a perfect training cadence?
Regarding training by heart rate, there really isn't anything new there as well; it's just the old school method was to do so by breathing rate, which to me is a far better barometer of how hard one is pushing because while any two seemingly similar individuals may have vastly different heart rates for any given level of exertion, their breathing is usually very nearly identical.
09-13-2016 11:17
09-13-2016 11:17
The metronome is my addition to the Maffetone method. It helps me maintain an even effort throughout the run. The only place I've read about using a metronome is Chi Walking. Scot Jurek said he uses a metronome for training new runners, but I don't know how he uses it. Most people wouldn't be interested.
Maffetone would say that if two similar runners had greatly different heart rates, the one with the high heart rate needs to slow down and develop their aerobic function.
My opinion is a person can only train at the pace of their weakest system. It is seldom the heart or the lungs, although it seems that way. Developing slowly gives everything a chance to improve with a smaller risk of injury. A person who runs at that comfortable higher breathing rate with a higher heart rate may be overstessing some muscles or tendons and not realize it until they get painful.
Notice I use many qualifiers. I'll be more certain when I see how the training plan works in the future.
09-13-2016 11:57 - edited 09-13-2016 12:01
09-13-2016 11:57 - edited 09-13-2016 12:01
@GershonSurge wrote:
Maffetone would say that if two similar runners had greatly different heart rates, the one with the high heart rate needs to slow down and develop their aerobic function.
As I suspect you already know, it isn't much of a stretch to say Maffetone is just plain wrong in this case; such a comment flies in the face of established fact. The reference to the rowing team in the Wikipedia dissertation, shows a Max Heart Rate spread of 60 bpm on the referenced Olympic rowing team, a team full of world class athletes, statistics like this easily give lie to what Maffetone says.
To quote the summary in the Wikipedia article:
Further, note that individuals of the same age, the same training, in the same sport, on the same team, can have actual HRmax 60 bpm apart (160–220) the range is extremely broad, and some say "The heart rate is probably the least important variable in comparing athletes."
09-13-2016 14:30 - edited 09-13-2016 14:34
09-13-2016 14:30 - edited 09-13-2016 14:34
@shipo wrote:
@GershonSurge wrote:
Maffetone would say that if two similar runners had greatly different heart rates, the one with the high heart rate needs to slow down and develop their aerobic function.
As I suspect you already know, it isn't much of a stretch to say Maffetone is just plain wrong in this case; such a comment flies in the face of established fact. The reference to the rowing team in the Wikipedia dissertation, shows a Max Heart Rate spread of 60 bpm on the referenced Olympic rowing team, a team full of world class athletes, statistics like this easily give lie to what Maffetone says.
To quote the summary in the Wikipedia article:
Further, note that individuals of the same age, the same training, in the same sport, on the same team, can have actual HRmax 60 bpm apart (160–220) the range is extremely broad, and some say "The heart rate is probably the least important variable in comparing athletes."
I couldn't find the article you referenced, so I can only go on the quote. Keep in mind, I'm not as committed to Dr. Maffetone being right as I am to Dr. McDougall being right. My whole training program is experimental, so I may find Maffetone's method doesn't work for me.
The quote does not challenge Dr. Maffetone's methods at all as he recommends training at higher heart rates going into the competitive season. Athletes need to keep in mind this is venturing into areas of possible overtraining and injuries, but they have to do this to win.
Perhaps we can agree you and Dr. Maffetone have different opinions, and I'm a test subject.
09-16-2016 09:26
09-16-2016 09:26
UPDATE
I started running again on Aug 22 after a nine week layoff due to an injury. It only took a few days to bet back to the old speed. The red line was on Aug 23. The black line is my best run since then.
I increased the cadence from 137 to 143.75 from Aug 23 to yesterday. This is the limit of rapid increases for now.
My heart rate still averages in thee bottom half of the zone.
09-16-2016 09:27 - edited 09-16-2016 14:13
09-16-2016 09:27 - edited 09-16-2016 14:13
Deleted - duplicate
10-11-2016 06:29
10-11-2016 06:29
@GershonSurge, any update on your progress? Are you still aiming for your half-marathon later this year?
10-11-2016 07:08 - edited 10-11-2016 07:12
10-11-2016 07:08 - edited 10-11-2016 07:12
Thanks for asking. No I'm not. I got lazy for about three weeks. If I run the distance, it will be on my own.
When the days started getting shorter, I found I needed about 6 1/2 hours of sleep instead of the 3-4 I was getting during the summer. It took my training time slot away.
10-11-2016 11:33
10-11-2016 11:33
@GershonSurge wrote:Thanks for asking. No I'm not. I got lazy for about three weeks. If I run the distance, it will be on my own.
When the days started getting shorter, I found I needed about 6 1/2 hours of sleep instead of the 3-4 I was getting during the summer. It took my training time slot away.
Is this setback temporary or will it impact your Marathon Attempt?
10-11-2016 12:51
10-11-2016 12:51
Temporary.