Any low carb/high fat dieters here?

[SunsetRunner]

Just got my fitbit Charge 2 and I'm new to the board.  I'm seeing a lot of low calorie dieters but haven't yet run across low carb/high fat dieters?  Are you here?

[Dominique]

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@GershonSurge wrote:

High protein diets cause a myriad of other problems

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Please show me studies pointing to the "myriad of other problems" caused by high protein diets. And by "studies", I mean something that can be found on PubMed or equivalent, not claims made by someone in a series of endless videos.

[SunsetRunner]

@GershonSurge
1.Foster GD, et al. A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity. New England Journal of Medicine, 2003.  Conclusion: There was more weight loss in the low-carb group, significant at 3 and 6 months, but not 12. The low-carb group had greater improvements in blood triglycerides and HDL, but other biomarkers were similar between groups

2. Samaha FF, et al. A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity. New England Journal of Medicine, 2003.  Conclusion: The low-carb group lost significantly more weight (about 3 times as much). There was also a statistically significant difference in several biomarkers:...Overall, the low-carb diet had significantly more beneficial effects on weight and key biomarkers in this group of severely obese individuals

3. Sondike SB, et al. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor in overweight adole... The Journal of Pediatrics, 2003.  Conclusion: The low-carb group lost significantly more (2.3 times as much) weight and had significant decreases in Triglycerides and Non-HDL cholesterol. Total and LDL cholesterol decreased in the low-fat group only.

4. Brehm BJ, et al. A randomized trial comparing a very low carbohydrate diet and a calorie-restricted low fat diet on b... The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 2003.   

Conclusion: The low-carb group lost more weight (2.2 times as much) and had significant reductions in blood triglycerides. HDL improved slightly in both groups.

5. Aude YW, et al. The national cholesterol education program diet vs a diet lower in carbohydrates and higher in prote... Archives of Internal Medicine, 2004.   Overall, the low-carb group lost more weight and had much greater improvements in several important risk factors for cardiovascular disease.

These are just 5 of 23 credible studies discussed and linked to in the article below.  MY results are about the same as the 23 studies results with regard to weight loss and improved cardio markers.  I've been eating low carb high fat for more than five years and have pretty much maintained my weight loss.  While I'd like to drop another 10, I'd be content to stay at this weight.  I eat a ton more vegetables than my friends and family, drink a ton more water, and am not always trying to lose weight.  This way of eating works beautifuly for me and for millions of others but I understand that one way of eating is not universal and we all need to find what works for us.  

https://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/

[SunsetRunner]

Your wrote :I would like to see the links to the credible studies showing the benefits. By benefits, I mean that lifespans were significantly increased after following the Atkins diet.     I would like to see ANY credible study on ANY diet that does so.  They don't exist-mainly, I think, because they would be too difficult and way to expensive to follow people for their entire lives and monitor what they eat.  Atkins was right that studies are expensive-it's why they are typically underwritten.

You also wrote: As a woman, you are mostly not at risk for a heart attack unless you smoke or are obese, but that's not the only disease. You are at higher risk for osteoporosis, which is caused by protein as a percentage of calories being above about 13%. (The actual number is within a couple percent. I just don't remember it.) High protein diets cause a myriad of other problems as do high fat diets. High fat is above about 10%.    Not completely correct-after menopause women have the same heart attack risk as males and are more likely to die because the symptoms are not the same as male heart attacks (in most cases).  You seem to think that Atkins is a high protein diet?  It is not.  It is low carb, high fat, moderate protein.  Carbs are mainly replace with fat calories, not protein calories.

[Dominique]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

I've been eating low carb high fat for more than five years and have pretty much maintained my weight loss.  While I'd like to drop another 10, I'd be content to stay at this weight.

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Given your history, losing 10 pounds should be a piece of cake (OK, maybe not the best thing to tell a LCHF advocate!): since you’ve found a diet you’re comfortable with and with which you can easily maintain, just keep eating the same and increase your activity by 500 calories (your Fitbit should be of great help for this). Or cut your intake by 250 calories and increase activity by 250 calories. The good thing with energy balance is it works with any diet and style of eating.

[GershonSurge]

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@Dominique wrote:

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@GershonSurge wrote:

High protein diets cause a myriad of other problems

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Please show me studies pointing to the "myriad of other problems" caused by high protein diets. And by "studies", I mean something that can be found on PubMed or equivalent, not claims made by someone in a series of endless videos.

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The China Study. Read the whole thing. 

[GershonSurge]

@SunsetRunner,

The fatal flaw in all your studies are they define low fat as below 30%. None of them involved eliminating animal products and free vegetable oils. 

Beneficial low fat is below 10% and low protein is below 13-15%.

The other fatal flaw is most focus on two or three markers. Weight, triglicerides and HDL. Why didn't they include total chloresterol, and many other markers concerning other diseases? They are what are called "unique positioning" studies. They find the one or two things high fat improved, and then say high fat is good for everything. The full extent of one of the studies was giving people a book and seeing what happened. There were zero controls. There is nothing in any of these studies that discuses other diseases.

@Dominique, @SunsetRunner

If I posted a couple hundred links to studies, you wouldn't read them. You also wouldn't have the historical context.  Truthfully, they don't publish enough information online for most studies. The most important reason is I'd be forced to cherry pick a small group of studies that by themselves wouldn't prove much.

It may seem like a chore to listen to 196 videos. You can record them, as I've done, and listen to them while you are exercising or doing other things. It takes about 32 hours of listening. How much time is your life and health worth? 

I guess the biggest negative is most of the speakers are old, lean and healthy. They have spent from about 30 to 50 years studying this information and are still actively treating patients. 

[SunsetRunner]

Probably I should have specified country :grin:  it's what I know.  'Back in the day' breakfasts were eggs, meat, gravy and biscuits.  Lunches were cooked, whole foods, and ditto for dinners.  And it seems dinners always had some kind of desert.  People were lean and fit then.  Today it seems breakfast is crap cereal with low fat milk and toast, lunch fast food, and dinner prepackaged crap.  

Excellent point about progress being the biggest culprit to the obesity epidemic!

[SunsetRunner]

@Dominique  Not only would it 'be very surprising' it WAS very surprising.  I admit to trying this way of eating will skepticism and disbelief but I track my food when dieting (calories, fat, protein, and carbs) and that's what happened.  Part might be my being hypothyroid-it seems like carbs are directly stored as fat for many of us but I don't really care about the why, I'm just thrilled that it is.

[USAF-Larry]

Meanwhile, I know lots of Old, Lean, and Healthy people who have never watched a one of those videos, many of them in the late 80's or early 90's (and, the older I get, the more of them I know...).  They simply follow a common sense diet and exercise regularly.

We had a neighborhood Christmas Dinner yesterday, and I sat with an "older" couple and the guy commented on how impressed he was to see me out walking every day. He said he didn't like going out for walks for fear of falling or getting hit by a car, but he used the treadmill and stationary bike every day. I told him I walk between 7 and 10 miles a day, and asked how much he does the treadmill and bike. He said he does 5 miles on the treadmill and then 30 minutes on the bike. I asked how old he is now, and he said he will be 89 next month. I noticed that he was eating pretty much the same thing everybody else, including the overweight people, were eating, but just smaller portions of the less-healthy foods, and bigger portions of the good foods. He even had wine with his dinner. We toasted to our continued good health!

I still maintain that diets don't last, but lifestyle changes do.  Reminds me of a women's magazine I see on the checkout counter of the grocery store. Every week it has new miracle diet that some famous person discovered that they lost a gazillion pounds with.  And, next week there is another miracle diet that some famous person discovered. This has been going on with that magazine for years, with 52 miracle diets every year.

[GershonSurge]

@USAF-Larry,

I was going to stay out of this topic until you classified the way of eating as a fad diet. McDougall and others have been saying the same thing since the 70's. That's why you won't see them on the covers of magazines. You will see protein, gluten, vitamin D, calcium, kale, etc., etc. Even Dr. Oz changes his story almost every day. 

We'd really have to look at a food log to see what you consider a healthy diet. Yes, there are many in their 80's who ate moderately. That's how statistics work. Some make it, and some don't. If you want to have a small piece of meat or fish, vegetables and a grain at most meals, you will likely do well. 

One area we agree on is the value of exercise. By our actions, we both agree more than what the CDC recommends is necessary. My personal opinion is exercise is better when it's done outside.

My beef (pun intended) is those who go hardover towards fatty foods and consider that healthy.  They use meat and dairy biased studies that look at one variable while ignoring the rest. 

[USAF-Larry]

[SunsetRunner]

I have increased my activity levels-it's why I got the fitbit.  I'm doing more mainly for health, now that I'm a widow I HAVE to be physically strong and able to do what needs to be done by myself so the motivation is good 🙂  I'm also hoping it does something for those ten pounds although, to be honest, I am a little concerned that my face will look saggy/haggy if I lose much more.  

I am really enjoying these forums and the viewpoints.  so glad I came here!

[SunsetRunner]

@GershonSurge  okay, it's your turn to proved credible, peer reviewed studies that are fairly recent to buttress you POV. 

[SunsetRunner]

@GershonSurge  I don't find online videos credible.  If they are not peer reviewed, I doubt them.

[SunsetRunner]

@USAF-Larry  I 100% agree that exercise is critical as we age.  I keep telling my sister that if all we do is sit and do little, eventually that will be all we CAN do.  She's getting her hip replaced in a couple of weeks and I plan of getting her more active.

I'm 62 and do step-aerobics 2x a week, pilates 2x a week and walk a mile a day.  not a lot of intentional exercise, but I also mow the yard, clear the brush and mend some fences so I keep fairly active.  I figure when I'm no longer to maintain my home and property I should move-and I do not want to move 🙂

I know those magazines :guffaw:  Always a woman, a new diet, desert recipes, and a thyroid cure LMAO

[USAF-Larry]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

@USAF-Larry  I 100% agree that exercise is critical as we age.  I keep telling my sister that if all we do is sit and do little, eventually that will be all we CAN do.  She's getting her hip replaced in a couple of weeks and I plan of getting her more active.
 

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After your sister gets her hip replacement, exercise will be critical to its success! The hospital will have her up and walking the same day, or the next day, and explain to her how critical it is that she keeps moving in order for the muscles to recover.

[GershonSurge]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

@GershonSurge  I don't find online videos credible.  If they are not peer reviewed, I doubt them.

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@SunsetRunner,

I'm also cautious about online videos. I can see where you wouldn't want to watch them. Yet, you might take a college course that studied peer reviewed studies. That's what's done in many of the videos. It's far better, in my opinion, to listen to the experts in the field (the videos aren't just Dr. McDougall speaks) explain the peer reviewd studies than to listen to Gershon select and explain them.

I don't find a list of studies selected by some blogger credible either. 

Referencing your other post: Since 1980, many studies have been heavily influenced by the meat and dairy industry. They are of shorter duration, and the sample size is smaller. They focus on one variable and exclude others. The healthy, long-lived populations have mostly succumbed to the infiltration of the Standard American Diet (SAD).  Now the pharmaceutical companies are converting everyone to life-long patients. 

Regardless of which side we choose, the availability of medical care is declining. Obama Care leaves out the middle class. The insurance premiums are high, the deductibles are high, and the copays are high. Trump will make it better by going to a voucher system for Medicare which won't cover the costs, eliminating most medicaid, and encouraging people to get medical savings accounts to pay for their own care. At least that's the most recent position. 

The result is we each have to practice our own preventative medicine and stay away from doctors with expensive cures that don't cure. People will have to start saving health and life for retirement instead of money. 

[A_Lurker]

@SunsetRunner- I do think back in my grandparents time the amount of physical work that most people did was balanced by their diet.  From talking with my mother, even though a lot of people included high starch the meats they had would be high fat (cheaper).   Depending on the time of year fruits and leafy vegetables would be minimal.  Winter brought things like cabbage, rutabagas, potatoes in great amounts.  My mother wasn't (and isn't) an egg person so that could be why she remembers porridge more.

From what I remember of our diet growing up, breakfast was toast and/or scones with jam and fruit.  I wasn't a milk drinker (and neither was she, so she didn't force it on me).  Lunch was sandwiches with meat/cheese and more fruit.  Dinner was a mixture of meat & potatoes/veg or stews, or roast chicken, etc.  I don't remember dessert being served at our table unless company was there.  This was likely because my father was diabetic (and struggled with it until his death).  My mother took in lots of extra calories through candy.  She's in her late 80s now and until a recent accident (she was struck by a drunk driver) she was in pretty decent shape for mid-80s.  In fact I'd say that if she hadn't been in such good shape she wouldn't have survived her injuries.  Her mental and physical health have declined, but this has nothing to do with her diet.

My own health is decent, considering I've been overweight/obese all of my life and am still solidly in the obese category.  I eat neither LCHF or the low-fat vegan approach touted here as the way to perfect health.  I lowered my A1Cs (marker of 3-month sugars) simply by losing weight and exercising more.  I took them down from diabetic levels to normal ones (they still will call me pre-diabetic for a while, perhaps forever).  I didn't have to radically change my eating habits, just control them.  This is my big concern for anyone saying that their way is the only way to (fitb).  We are all unique individuals and finding something that works for us and allows us to lose weight is, in my opinion, more important in the long run.

If someone has found a WOE (way of eating) that works for them, and their medical markers are good that's what counts.

(Oh, and I live in a country with socialized medicine.  I won't be bounced out of my group insurance or bankrupted if I do fall ill.  My opinion is that Canada should cover more preventive items, but so be it.)

[SunsetRunner]

@USAF-Larry I had mine replaced a year and a half ago and the surgeon had the PT guy come to my house the first three weeks until I was able to drive to the PT office myself.  It made a world of difference and I was absolutely shocked at how weak I was after surgery.

Sister had a hip replaced 3 years ago and she couldn't afford PT after (if she had told me, I'd a given her the money) so she just walked.  😞  She will definitely have PT after this surgery and I will work with her to be sure she does her homework.  I keep telling her we need to be strong but she's never exercised in her life and I think the doesn't beleive it possible to get strong or necessary to exercise.  wish me luck!

[SunsetRunner]

@GershonSurge  You wrote "I don't find a list of studies selected by some blogger credible either. ".   It isn't the blogger that makes them credible, it is the publications that published them-i.e. the peer review.  Look again at the list and note the journals in which the articles were published.   That is the credibility.

However, I find it unlikely either of us agree on this so why don't we move to another subject?  I've been dog sitting my neighbors dog so have added an additional walk to my daily routine and managed to get over 12,000 steps the other day!  A personal best for me.