SPO2 sensor on Ionic

[JAH67]

Part of the sales pitch for the Ionic watch was that it has multiple additional features that would come online after launch, including the ability to check blood oxygen levels. I've yet to find anything to do with it anywhere. Has anyone got any information when this stuff is going live or was it just marketing? 

Moderator edit: updated subject for clarity and word choice.

[Tinkerstoy]

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@stevekn wrote:

That is error by omission.  To state an item has something, without stating that it is worthless is not good.  Besides, it has absolutely no value, unless they provide the software in the future since, apparently, they are telling nobody else how to fill the gap.

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I totally agree. I just bought one because the local store listed the O2 sensor as a selling point. When one buys a car, it is rightfully assumed the engine advertised actually runs. If the O2 sensor does not function with suitable software, it is dead to the device. Don't list it. When my watch arrives, I am sending it back. Very disappointed I had to learn this flaw from a board.

[SunsetRunner]

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@Tinkerstoy wrote:

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@stevekn wrote:

That is error by omission.  To state an item has something, without stating that it is worthless is not good.  Besides, it has absolutely no value, unless they provide the software in the future since, apparently, they are telling nobody else how to fill the gap.

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I totally agree. I just bought one because the local store listed the O2 sensor as a selling point. When one buys a car, it is rightfully assumed the engine advertised actually runs. If the O2 sensor does not function with suitable software, it is dead to the device. Don't list it. When my watch arrives, I am sending it back. Very disappointed I had to learn this flaw from a board.

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"If the O2 sensor does not function with suitable software, it is dead to the device. Don't list it."

Listed where? See specs below from Fitbit's web page:

https://www.fitbit.com/ionic

SENSORS & COMPONENTS

• Altimeter
• 3-axis accelerometers
• Digital compass
• GPS
• Optical heart rate monitor
• Ambient light sensor
• Sensors & Components
• Vibration motor

[Quadratic]

The Ionic has been discounted by 20% in less than 3 months in the UK. Suggests to me that they are not flying off the shelves and one can draw their own conclusions why. Although expensive I was willing to pay (offset by selling my Charge 2 to a colleague) full release day price for the Ionic however as someone who sees the SpO2 sensor as the main reason for purchase even a discount of 20% isn't going to part me with my cash. Add in the other 'teething problems' then it looks like Fitbit have rushed a product to market and shot themselves in the feet with both revolvers. I wanted this product to work as I like the Fitbit software platform however with no SpO2 functionality and also being in the market for a new blood pressure monitor I am probably going to buy a combined heart rate, SpO2 & blood pressure wrist band.

[Middy]

“listed where?”.... the information was issued by fitbit via press release to the whole world. Fitbit knew this information was going to be repeated and reported on. If they are not going to use the technology why tell everyone? Really bad PR. 

”New sensor technology: The introduction of a relative SpO2 sensor for estimating blood oxygen levels opens the potential for tracking important new indicators about your health, such as sleep apnea. ”

link: https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-release-details/2017/Fitbit-Launches-Ionic-th...

[mmaakh]

My surge is my last fitbit purchase. I like heartrate tracking and will use other brands as soon as my surge breaks (just wanting to maximise ROI).

1. Dishonest marketing, 2. Ignoring simple user feedback relating to their app, 3. Acquiring competing startups then killing them (pebble, vector).

So yeah, fitbit is beyond just annoying and into being harmful.

[SunsetRunner]

New info:

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2018/jan/fitbit-makes-move-to-create-cgm-systems-90876406.html

[SunsetRunner]

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@Middy wrote:

“listed where?”.... the information was issued by fitbit via press release to the whole world. Fitbit knew this information was going to be repeated and reported on. If they are not going to use the technology why tell everyone? Really bad PR. 

”New sensor technology: The introduction of a relative SpO2 sensor for estimating blood oxygen levels opens the potential for tracking important new indicators about your health, such as sleep apnea. ”

link: https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-release-details/2017/Fitbit-Launches-Ionic-th...

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It has a sensor! What part of "potential" do you not understand? This is also an investor document.

Back to sales website and the specs don't mention it anywhere.

[Colinm39]

We wait...

SpO2 Sensor.. and if the Relax feature and sleep feature can be expanded to examine Heart Rate Variability (HRV)... All potential as far as I can glean......

I'm awaiting my Corsense Finger sensor for HRV.. I already use my Polar and Elite HRV for that..

So 2018-2019 will bring out more Fitbit features.   They have to keep generating the revenue..Plenty to look forward to... Have a great 2018 everyone who is following this post...

[Colinm39]

@SunsetRunnerHere is the last para in that Investor document and Fitbit have covered themselves for the future potential...

This press release contains forward-looking statements, within the meaning of the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, that involve risks and uncertainties including, among other things, statements regarding the future retail availability of Fitbit Ionic, including any special edition devices and accessories, as well as the future availability of the Fitbit app software development kit, Fitbit Studio, Fitbit App Gallery and available apps, and other product features described in this release, including Fitbit Pay and the relative SpO2 sensor. These forward-looking statements are only predictions and may differ materially from actual results due to a variety of factors, including the effects of the highly competitive market in which we operate, including competition from much larger technology companies; any inability to successfully develop and introduce new products, features, and services or enhance existing products and services; product liability issues, security breaches or other defects; and other factors discussed under the heading “Risk Factors” in our most recent report on Form 10-Q filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. All forward-looking statements contained herein are based on information available to us as of the date hereof and we do not assume any obligation to update these statements as a result of new information or future events.

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

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@Middy wrote:

“listed where?”.... the information was issued by fitbit via press release to the whole world. Fitbit knew this information was going to be repeated and reported on. If they are not going to use the technology why tell everyone? Really bad PR. 

”New sensor technology: The introduction of a relative SpO2 sensor for estimating blood oxygen levels opens the potential for tracking important new indicators about your health, such as sleep apnea. ”

link: https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-release-details/2017/Fitbit-Launches-Ionic-the-Ultimate-Health-and-Fitness-Smartwatch/default.aspx

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It has a sensor! What part of "potential" do you not understand? This is also an investor document.

Back to sales website and the specs don't mention it anywhere.

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[BigRalphN]

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@Middy wrote:

“listed where?”.... the information was issued by fitbit via press release to the whole world. Fitbit knew this information was going to be repeated and reported on. If they are not going to use the technology why tell everyone? Really bad PR. 

”New sensor technology: The introduction of a relative SpO2 sensor for estimating blood oxygen levels opens the potential for tracking important new indicators about your health, such as sleep apnea. ”

link: https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-release-details/2017/Fitbit-Launches-Ionic-th...

Interesting but it States "opens the potential" which tells you it is currently not Used but the potential for future use is there. 

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[Magalhas]

I’ve actually bought Ionic due to the SPO2 sensor feature (idc about sleep apnea detection, but I want to have access to O2 saturarion levels).

If this feature does not rollout I’ll be one of the new Fitbit customers that will not be retained for one product cycle...

[Supercharlie]

I heard Fitbit 'just put the O2 sensors there to collect and sell the data. They filed for medical diagnostic device status. Info is valuable for Insurance industries.' Also heard, 'Sensor is broken out of the box so they hobbled the interface.' Id like more clarification from Fitbit instead of the rumor mill. What's going on?

[SunsetRunner]

I don't see why the sensor would not be in place already and just needs the software to make it work.  I was recently in hospital with pneumonia and my O2 stats were measured around 75%. How did they get this measurement you may ask... They used a device with a blinking LED light they clipped onto my finger.

Now if they can do this on the end of my finger then the blinking LED light on the Ionic can do the same.  Looking at the bottom of the Ionic compared to my Blaze there does in fact seem to be another sensor there, this may well be the sensor they intend to activate once they iron out all the bugs in the software. The Ionic has only been out for a few months now, at least give them a chance to come through with the promise.  If after a year it is still not implemented then, please by all means roll around on the floor and throw a justified tantrum 😉 

[Colinm39]

@SunsetRunner I agree with you.. I have been using my Polar chest with the Elite HRV App and last year the Elite developers were raising funds via Kickstarter  to finish developing exactly the same device you described. I paid up, development is well on the way, and expected delivery April 2018

I was interested because I have always had measures of my cardio fitness level over the last 20 years, mainly from stress tests and the Rockport walking tests and now Fitbit which is close to my other tests.

The idea of purchasing the Corsense device is to let me do my comparative analysis of Fitbits results. I'm sure Fitbit will release their version on the Ionic because the hardware is there to make it work.  Fitbit are picking it up in our sleeping HRV (Heart Rate Variable).

When I use the Corsense link via the Polar it always tells me if I'm "over trained" etc, but for me at 78 that's not the case, just other issues, but I'm genetically programmed as an elite athlete on the data I have access to.. Nice to know and as I have found in my makeup, not speedy, but I could go all day if needed.. Conformed by my cardiologists.

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

I don't see why the sensor would not be in place already and just needs the software to make it work.  I was recently in hospital with pneumonia and my O2 stats were measured around 75%. How did they get this measurement you may ask... They used a device with a blinking LED light they clipped onto my finger.

Now if they can do this on the end of my finger then the blinking LED light on the Ionic can do the same.  Looking at the bottom of the Ionic compared to my Blaze there does in fact seem to be another sensor there, this may well be the sensor they intend to activate once they iron out all the bugs in the software. The Ionic has only been out for a few months now, at least give them a chance to come through with the promise.  If after a year it is still not implemented then, please by all means roll around on the floor and throw a justified tantrum 😉 

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[OutOfTheBox]

On a hunch, I just did a search for "spo2 sensor" followed by a search for "relative spo2 sensor". "spo2 sensor" resulted in lots of non-Fitbit related results. Adding "relative" concentrates it to Fitbit.

I believe that what this means is that they cannot make an absolute spo2 measurement with their sensor. It is designed to detect changes in spo2 only. This type of sensor has more limited application and does not seem to have wide use.

In addition, nothing has ever been said about the accuracy of those change measurements. It could be a very coarse grained indication that was designed for the singular purpose of detecting extreme conditions such as apnea.

If it is truly "relative" and the data is made available to us, the most we could eventually see for things like running would be increases and decreases from the starting point. Those increases and decreases might be presented as a percentage of signal value that has no direct relationship to an absolute spo2 level. I believe I'd still find this useful, but far less so than absolute values. I think that the average user would misunderstand the meaning of what they are seeing.

[stevekn]

I don't think anyone really cares about that.  EVEN DOCTORS don't do that via machines!  HOW ABOUT just having a MONITOR, AS PROMISED, and an API to use it, as implied.

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@Venkats wrote:

The difference is that the small SpO2 finger sensor is just that. It tells our O2 saturation and it does not attempt to predict whether or not the person has / will have Sleep Apnea or some sort of a clinically sensitive disorder. For that matter it is not very hard for the HRM watches to detect certain cardiac abnormalities but they refrain from doing so deliberately.

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[stevekn]

Why do you work on an app with NO API or guidance?  Is the thing even active?

[fluxx]

Anybody followed the disaster of the Withings scale?

https://www.engadget.com/2018/01/22/nokia-disables-pulse-wave-velocity-body-cardio/

They had to remove the existing feature because it made the scale a medical device with a much higher level of regulatory approval. I wonder if this might be the same case for the SPO2 sensor on the Ionic?

Just guessing...  I am too waiting for this feature and Fitbit to clarify how and when they will implement it. It was a clear promise at the start and I'm eagerly waiting for them to open it up for the owners of the Ionic. (But I have very mixed feelings if that will ever happen looking at the past 6 months after the product launch.) 

[ccyoh]

I am developing an oximetry app for the Fitbit Ionic.  Is there a Oxygen Sensor module just as there is for the Heart Rate Sensor (as below) that I could import into the app?  

import { HeartRateSensor } from "heart-rate";

[fluxx]

@ccyohNo, at least no yet. The function is not active yet and there is no API for it.