SPO2 sensor on Ionic

[JAH67]

Part of the sales pitch for the Ionic watch was that it has multiple additional features that would come online after launch, including the ability to check blood oxygen levels. I've yet to find anything to do with it anywhere. Has anyone got any information when this stuff is going live or was it just marketing? 

Moderator edit: updated subject for clarity and word choice.

[RyanZ]

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@WavyDavey wrote:

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@Kight wrote:

Thats using Dilbert logic, charge your customers for hardware that is not implemented into the current usable build, and may never be.

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It seems logical to me. Manufacturers release phones all the time that have hardware minus the software needed to drive it. But since Fitbit took the effort to announce the O2 sensor in the Ionic, it seems reasonable to say they intend to implement it.

There's so much interest in the possibility of using this to identify sleep apnea, that I can't imagine it being abandoned. More likely, there's lots of hoops that Fitbit has to jump through that we know nothing about.

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Really? Can you give me an example of phone hardware that’s been advertised and hasn’t worked on launch? I can’t remember a time when that’s happened to me. To say that your product has something that no other product has and then say in the fine print (sometimes maybe in the future, we hope) and will charge $150 more than a product that does exactly what your “new” product does is completely ridiculous. This p.o.s will be going back to Best Buy first thing in the morning. False advertising at its best. 

[WavyDavey]

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@RyanZ wrote:

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@WavyDavey wrote:

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@Kight wrote:

Thats using Dilbert logic, charge your customers for hardware that is not implemented into the current usable build, and may never be.

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It seems logical to me. Manufacturers release phones all the time that have hardware minus the software needed to drive it. But since Fitbit took the effort to announce the O2 sensor in the Ionic, it seems reasonable to say they intend to implement it.

There's so much interest in the possibility of using this to identify sleep apnea, that I can't imagine it being abandoned. More likely, there's lots of hoops that Fitbit has to jump through that we know nothing about.

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Really? Can you give me an example of phone hardware that’s been advertised and hasn’t worked on launch? I can’t remember a time when that’s happened to me. To say that your product has something that no other product has and then say in the fine print (sometimes maybe in the future, we hope) and will charge $150 more than a product that does exactly what your “new” product does is completely ridiculous. This p.o.s will be going back to Best Buy first thing in the morning. False advertising at its best. 

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Sorry to hear that. Again, Fitbit made no announcement about the software for the sensor being available. Only that the sensor is in place. Where's the false advertising?

I'm not sure if you're serious about asking about phones or computers that haven't worked 100% on launch? It might be quicker to list the ones that did work perfectly. I don't have any on my list.

[RyanZ]

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@WavyDavey wrote:

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@RyanZ wrote:

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@WavyDavey wrote:

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@Kight wrote:

Thats using Dilbert logic, charge your customers for hardware that is not implemented into the current usable build, and may never be.

---

It seems logical to me. Manufacturers release phones all the time that have hardware minus the software needed to drive it. But since Fitbit took the effort to announce the O2 sensor in the Ionic, it seems reasonable to say they intend to implement it.

There's so much interest in the possibility of using this to identify sleep apnea, that I can't imagine it being abandoned. More likely, there's lots of hoops that Fitbit has to jump through that we know nothing about.

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Really? Can you give me an example of phone hardware that’s been advertised and hasn’t worked on launch? I can’t remember a time when that’s happened to me. To say that your product has something that no other product has and then say in the fine print (sometimes maybe in the future, we hope) and will charge $150 more than a product that does exactly what your “new” product does is completely ridiculous. This p.o.s will be going back to Best Buy first thing in the morning. False advertising at its best. 

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Sorry to hear that. Again, Fitbit made no announcement about the software for the sensor being available. Only that the sensor is in place. Where's the false advertising?

I'm not sure if you're serious about asking about phones or computers that haven't worked 100% on launch? It might be quicker to list the ones that did work perfectly. I don't have any on my list.

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There seems to be a reading comprehension error here. You stated that phones are released all the time with hardware that no software supports, that’s simply a lie. There hasn’t been a phone made to date that has claimed it will do something and has no capability to do it. Are there software bugs? Sure. Has a manufacturer ever said “Our phone now has wireless charging!” and then you had to wait months to use it? No.

I am clearly not the only person completely pissed off by being mislead and being told I should have read the fine print. That’s classic bait and switch, and shows how shady this company is. This was my first experience with Fitbit and will certainly be my last. 

[shipo]

@RyanZ, please post a link to a Fitbit advertisement which states the SPO2 sensor would be operational at launch.  I rather doubt you can.  Why?  I've been following the Ionic since the week before it was launched (when the press was just calling it the Fitbit Smart Watch), and I'm fairly certain Fitbit never once said the SPO2 sensor would be in any way functional when the Ionic was released.

Long story short, where is the false advertising?

[RyanZ]

Sure, can you post a link of where they said it wouldn’t? Preferably not some obscure area or in the fine print, but actually in the marketing/sale of the watch. Thanks!

[shipo]

@RyanZ, here's a review I read the week before the Ionic was announced:

• https://www.wareable.com/fitbit/fitbit-smartwatch-details-2017

Here is a direct quote from the article:

• "On the back you'll find one green optical sensor for heart rate, which Fitbit promises is now more accurate at higher intervals, while the new red and infrared sensors can track relative SpO2 and will let Fitbit one day monitor conditions like sleep apnea. This won't happen from the get-go, but Fitbit is putting the sensors in place now and says we'll see these new health features "in the not-too-distant future"."

[SunsetRunner]

Curious.... I don't see any mention of the peripheral capillary oxygen saturation (SPO2) monitor mentioned at the Fitbit Ionic site under Techincal Specs... just "Heart Rate Monitor." (We now return you to your regularly schedule argument.)

[shipo]

@SunsetRunner, yup, looks like false advertising to me..., NOT!  🙂

[WavyDavey]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

Curious.... I don't see any mention of the peripheral capillary oxygen saturation (SPO2) monitor mentioned at the Fitbit Ionic site under Techincal Specs... just "Heart Rate Monitor." (We now return you to your regularly schedule argument.)

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I think that's the point @shipo and I are making. Fitbit didn't actually advertise the SpO2, at least that I know of. There's a statement made by Fitbit on an earnings call, with lots of "maybe to come" language in it. I seriously doubt the average purchaser of a Fitbit monitors their earnings calls.

I still want to see in what advertisement people are getting the idea about the sensor being functioning, as it appears there's not a single one. This gives the impression that a person may have bought the Ionic, then came to this forum, learned about the sensor, and now expect it.

It would be intersting to hear from someone who actually bought the Ionic because of the future SpO2 possibility. Maybe they could tell us where they heard about SpO2?

[SunsetRunner]

I'm completely with you and @shipo on this, @WavyDavey.

I work for the Army (both as a civilian and as a Reservist). I'm used to hardware having bits that aren't actually functional yet... It's very common in phased development programs. That, and software with a spiral development process, you get working code, though not perfect, that gets regular updates. (Let's hope Fitbit sends regular updates.)

But most people see the red doodad on the back, then read on some site that it's a kind of sensor, and feel gypped because it isn't working - even though no one ever said it would be.

First World Problems, I guess.

[RyanZ]

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@WavyDavey wrote:

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

Curious.... I don't see any mention of the peripheral capillary oxygen saturation (SPO2) monitor mentioned at the Fitbit Ionic site under Techincal Specs... just "Heart Rate Monitor." (We now return you to your regularly schedule argument.)

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I think that's the point @shipo and I are making. Fitbit didn't actually advertise the SpO2, at least that I know of. There's a statement made by Fitbit on an earnings call, with lots of "maybe to come" language in it. I seriously doubt the average purchaser of a Fitbit monitors their earnings calls.

I still want to see in what advertisement people are getting the idea about the sensor being functioning, as it appears there's not a single one. This gives the impression that a person may have bought the Ionic, then came to this forum, learned about the sensor, and now expect it.

It would be intersting to hear from someone who actually bought the Ionic because of the future SpO2 possibility. Maybe they could tell us where they heard about SpO2?

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Actually I have no interest in this device aside from the sp02 sensor, that’s the only reason I bought it. I wouldn’t even wear it during the day. As far as where I got that info from, was this article, and a few others http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41082953 and from Best Buy when I went to buy it. 

[SunsetRunner]

This seems like a issue with expectation management by reading third-party reviews, and not anything Fitbit did to mislead anyone.

[WavyDavey]

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@RyanZ, sorry to hear that. It sounds to me like an over-zealous salesperson at BB is to blame.  Some sales folks will promise almost anything, without having done all the research (which they probably don't have time to do for every product anyway). These situations are why I rarely shop retail.

Ryan, since your sole interest in the Ionic was the SpO2 monitoring, what do you plan to do after returning it? Are there any other smart watches that can do this kind of monitoring? If not, it would seem Fitbit is still ahead of the pack, and might be worth waiting on?

[shipo]

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@RyanZ wrote:

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Actually I have no interest in this device aside from the sp02 sensor, that’s the only reason I bought it. I wouldn’t even wear it during the day. As far as where I got that info from, was this article, and a few others http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41082953 and from Best Buy when I went to buy it. 

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I skimmed the article and came across the following:

• The new device also marks the first time Fitbit has included an SpO2 sensor in one of its wearables.
• The component estimates the amount of oxygenated haemoglobin in blood.
• The firm suggests this could be used to provide new types of health alerts, including warnings of sleep apnoea - a disorder that causes people to briefly stop breathing or take shallow breaths during rest.

I'm thinking your elevated expectations were due more to wishful thinking than anything Fitbit promised.

[bbarrera]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

This seems like a issue with expectation management by reading third-party reviews, and not anything Fitbit did to mislead anyone.

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For those that don't understand press launches, here is how the Ionic was launched:

- Fitbit invited the press to an Ionic press launch on Thursday, August 28th. Some members of the press attended the meeting in person. Here is a 3rd party photo taken at the press event

- Fitbit put out a press release on Thursday, August 28th.

- Fitbit gave them a press kit that included a watch for testing and writing a review

- Fitbit told them it was ok to publish first look pieces on August 28th, but no official reviews until September 25th

- Fitbit gave a formal presentation and answered questions. That presentation included info on SpO2

- Fitbit gave some members of the press one-on-one time with James Park, the Fitbit CEO

Here is the press release:

Fitbit clearly wanted articles written about SpO2, and encouraged that in the press release headline, and statements made at the press launch by Fitbit CEO James Park.

Up to you to decide if that was misleading or not. Fitbit publicly announced SpO2, encouraged articles to be written that included info about SpO2, and now 3 months later is still unable to provide specifics on when SpO2 will be enabled and how it will be used.

[SunsetRunner]

@bbarrera And it very clearly states "The introduction of a relative SpO2 sensor for estimating blood oxygen levels opens the potential for tracking important new indicators about your health, such as sleep apnea." 

[bbarrera]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:

@bbarrera And it very clearly states "The introduction of a relative SpO2 sensor for estimating blood oxygen levels opens the potential for tracking important new indicators about your health, such as sleep apnea."  

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Sure, I carefully read stuff and picked up on that immediately. However I can tell you that perception is reality, and even when I reread the press release its easy to miss words like "future" and "opens the potential." Thats human nature.

I'd also wager that Fitbit provided sales sheets to train Best Buy and other retailers (physical and online). You can bet SpO2 was included in Ionic training materials. Its also human nature for people to remember its a differentiator, and forget its not available. Particularly when they have a store full of wearables and related electronics.

So we can be all precise and find those carefully crafted * (not available yet), but the simple fact is that Fitbit wants folks to know SpO2 is a differentiator and yet here we are 3 months later and still no specifics. Even folks on this thread are saying (paraphrasing) "who else has it, why don't you just wait" which is precisely what Fitbit wants to happen.

[shipo]

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@bbarrera wrote:

So we can be all precise and find those carefully crafted * (not available yet), but the simple fact is that Fitbit wants folks to know SpO2 is a differentiator and yet here we are 3 months later and still no specifics. Even folks on this thread are saying (paraphrasing) "who else has it, why don't you just wait" which is precisely what Fitbit wants to happen.

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I still see the SPO2 sensor as a differentiator as it is something I might be wanting down the road (I've had sleep apnea for 20 years but it is controlled with a CPAP machine).  Had Fitbit not included it in the initial release of the Ionic, I would have bought it anyway, and then when the Ionic Mark-II came out with the sensor I would have been mad mine didn't have it.

Long story short, I think Fitbit did the right thing in including the new sensor even though the Firmware/Software and/or necessary regulatory approvals aren't available/in place yet.

[SunsetRunner]

@bbarrera So, it sounds as if you're suggesting it's Fitbit's fault because people have terrible reading comprehension and choose to overlook what is written in black and white. As I said, a problem with expectation management.

FWIW - The Samsung Note 4 had a SpO2 sensor. It measured heart rate fine, but it's O2 measurement was pretty sketchy, lots of complaints. And, I'd rather Fitbit get it working correctly, than all the b**ching that would result here on this forum from people saying how terrible it is to release something that isn't fully developed. I mean, we see that enough from people who have never done a day of coding, and debugging...

[bbarrera]

@SunsetRunner like I said, its up to you to decide. Two facts are: Fitbit promoted it to the press, and after 3 months Fitbit is still unable to tell us when it will be enabled. There are a lot of words in the press release, including statements to the effect "it may never happen."

By asking the reader to carefully parse things, Fitbit has set the stage for expectation mismatch. And Fitbit also doesn't fully document things. For both reasons, and a few more, they offer 30-day (whatever it is) refunds.

I'm not **ahem**ing, it is what it is, I'm hoping to see SpO2 deployed someday. However I do object to telling people its their fault for not carefully parsing press releases, or reviewing specs/manuals that are incomplete. Far better to say "roll the dice and wait, or return it and move on if you aren't happy" than to assign blame squarely on the shoulders of the consumer. As they say, it takes two to tango.