Always burn more than I eat, still gain weight

[Case13]

I've read a lot of forums across more than just the FitBit site that all say "it's as simple as burning more than you eat."  Well, I do.  I probably eat excessively one to two days per week but even then, I usually eat what I burn where all the other days I maintain a 100-700 calorie deficiency.  

In December, I had some medical issues in play where I couldn't eat enough to not lose weight.  Then suddenly, in the last week of January (so not over holidays or anything), my weight shot up by 16 pounds and has been moving up and down in an 8 pound range since then but never back down to where I was consistently from August to January.

You might think it is a new medicine I am on, but I have had this problem for years whenever I'm not on a medication that causes weight loss.  You might think it is a thyroid issues, but apparently my standard thyroid test comes out perfect (although that doesn't mean the more in-depth test would).

Any ideas?  It's incredibly depressing.

[Case13]

I do manually add non step based activity when I have that activity. I haven't had any since the start of last week. It has all been walking. Before I log a single step, FitBit tells me to eat approx 1350 calories.

[Case13]

Reply to Naomi94

My BMR per My Fitness Pal and other sites is within 15 calories of what FitBit suggests for me.

I don't drink diet soda and hardly drink any other kind of soda at all. I probably finish a bottle of soda every 7 days, if that.

I generally never weigh myself at all but I have been asked by my doctor to weigh myself as often as possible which comes out to about every third day right now.

I log my calories pretty tediously. I even started tediously weighing every little thing and it all comes out to about what I was logging before. Ironically, I was logging too high for most things.

I think overall the problem is that I am not overweight. I don't have an obesity problem other than genetically. From what I've determined through this conversation, my metabolism has been run down by a variety of situations where my body became used to eating at about 900 calories a day for a while. When I switched medicines in January, I ballooned and gained 18 pounds in less than two weeks. As it is a common side effect of that med, I quickly went off of it but haven't been able to recover from the effects. I have learned from doctors so far that my thyroid is fine but I do have excessive water weight that is putting pressure on my heart. That's really not a good thing so I have to be very careful what I do about this weight. Per everything I have learned about metabolism lately, I shouldn't be doing any weight training right now. I should only be walking, resting, and eating lightly. So I am trying to do that. The harder I try to push to lose weight, the more I gain - from decreasing calorie intake and increasing activity. The more water weight I gain, the worse my chest pains.

[Heybales]

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@Case13 wrote:
I do manually add non step based activity when I have that activity. I haven't had any since the start of last week. It has all been walking. Before I log a single step, FitBit tells me to eat approx 1350 calories.

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Well, that's based on your selection of either sedentary or historical.

And then the base calories are adjusted through the day with activity.

So the 1350 must be the 500 cal deficit you said you selected, which means the average TDEE it usually sees is 1850, or by your selection it's 1850.

But what does your average TDEE end up being daily? You get that from your weekly emailed reports.

[Heybales]

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@Case13 wrote:
I know it is only Wednesday, but I've lost 4 pounds. It's the only real movement in losing that I've seen in over a month.

What I'm not sure of is whether that is that I am eating 250 more or if it has to do with my success last week. Last week I had about a 3,000 calorie deficiency for the entire week and walked nearly 80,000 steps.

I guess time will tell.

So losing weight when eating more has to do with water retention from less carbs? I hurt my back so all I've been doing is walking and resting. I've been sleeping more than I have in a while as well. I took 5 days off of my medicine (basically just there to keep me REALLY awake throughout the day) which always makes me SUPER hungry but I was able to manage it pretty well.

I will keep your list of suggested strength training for when it is time then.

Will it really be 1-3 months of resetting my metabolism (per the video/article you sent two days ago)?

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There is a known effect commonly called whoosh effect, when someone that was eating too low finally eats enough carbs, or has several stiff drinks.

It appears water was temp stored in fat cells, so same size, about same weight, and one of those things allows body to rid itself of the excess.

So very possible you got this finally. From amount you gained fast, wouldn't be surprised if you see it again.

3000 cal deficit on paper would not have an effect later after several days. Just as the weight gain eating 250 more daily would be slow if really eating above maintenance, loss would also be slow.

Your example from last week is exactly why body was probably in distress.

Yet again - the eating more isn't to lose weight from it, it's to let your body know it's not starving for energy and can speed back up.

Once it speeds back up you can take a reasonable deficit and actually be able to lose.

Please reread my comments on what the test is doing, it'll sink in. There is not water retention from less carbs, got that backwards.

As to how long. Unknown on your genetic and body's willingness to speed back up to potential.

You could eat this 250 more and maintain.

Which means another 2 weeks eating 250 more than this current amount.

You basically want to get to point where no fast water weight gains or losses - 1 lb slowly gained over 2 weeks time.

Means eating level prior to that last 2 weeks was really TDEE.

[Case13]

The only thing my weekly FitBit email says about calories is this:

14,442 calories burned
Daily average: 2063
Best Day: 2215

Calores In Vs Out
-897
14442 clas burned
11795 calories eaten
-1750 plan deficit


Does that make m TDEE 2063? Because my daily average burn the week prior was 1884, before that 1990, etc.

[Case13]

In a previous post you said...

However long it takes to store those carbs in the liver if low or the muscles if low (and during a diet they are also lower than possible - hence fast water weight loss when starting a diet, and faster water weight gaining when going to maintenance), and then insulin drops to maintain blood sugar levels where the body wants them.

This confuses me because during a diet, I gained water weight and now that I am eating more, I'm losing.  You say that it has to do with eating at maintenance but we've also discussed that I was eating too much previously or I would be losing weight.  So it is hard for me to understand that I am eating more, losing water weight, yet somehow many, many calories above maintenace regardless of any consideration for dificiency.  

In your most recent post you said: 

So very possible you got this finally. From amount you gained fast, wouldn't be surprised if you see it again.

I don't know what this means.  Got what finally?  And are you saying that based on what I am doing now you wouldn't be surprised if I gained another 18-20 pounds over a short period of time?  That would be... insane.  Only once in my life have I weighed even close to that much.

Also, I am at only a 250 deficit now because I thought I was supposed to eat 250 more to see if I gradually gain weight?  So per your post re: TDEE, it would be -250 and not -500.

Also not sure why now that I am eating more, I am almost uncontrollably hungry whereas when I was eating much less, it wasn't very difficult to eat less so long as I ate healthy because I never really felt starving.

[Heybales]

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@Case13 wrote:
The only thing my weekly FitBit email says about calories is this:

14,442 calories burned
Daily average: 2063
Best Day: 2215

Calores In Vs Out
-897
14442 clas burned
11795 calories eaten
-1750 plan deficit


Does that make m TDEE 2063? Because my daily average burn the week prior was 1884, before that 1990, etc.

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Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE), sorry I thought you knew what it meant, as shown above and called calories burned.

And yes, 2063 avg.

See - your estimated potential TDEE is much higher than you were eating, may even be higher yet.

That's what it's hoped you could get up to with only a little water weight gain. Than maintain at that higher level totally unstressing body.

[Heybales]

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@Case13 wrote:

In a previous post you said...

However long it takes to store those carbs in the liver if low or the muscles if low (and during a diet they are also lower than possible - hence fast water weight loss when starting a diet, and faster water weight gaining when going to maintenance), and then insulin drops to maintain blood sugar levels where the body wants them.

This confuses me because during a diet, I gained water weight and now that I am eating more, I'm losing.  You say that it has to do with eating at maintenance but we've also discussed that I was eating too much previously or I would be losing weight.  So it is hard for me to understand that I am eating more, losing water weight, yet somehow many, many calories above maintenace regardless of any consideration for dificiency.  

In your most recent post you said: 

So very possible you got this finally. From amount you gained fast, wouldn't be surprised if you see it again.

I don't know what this means.  Got what finally?  And are you saying that based on what I am doing now you wouldn't be surprised if I gained another 18-20 pounds over a short period of time?  That would be... insane.  Only once in my life have I weighed even close to that much.

Also, I am at only a 250 deficit now because I thought I was supposed to eat 250 more to see if I gradually gain weight?  So per your post re: TDEE, it would be -250 and not -500.

Also not sure why now that I am eating more, I am almost uncontrollably hungry whereas when I was eating much less, it wasn't very difficult to eat less so long as I ate healthy because I never really felt starving.

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Glad to see your hormones that control hunger are coming back. Eat too little for too long and you will screw them up. That's why not feeling hungry is a terrible indicator if already under-eating.

But being hungry now means either metabolism is speeding up, or at the least the hormones are coming back in line.

You are taking too hard a look at too short a period of time. It may pan out you'll keep losing, it may not.

I've choosen my words carefully in almost all these posts, to clarify 2 very important things. Suppressed and potential. Reread any posts that seem confusing and notice I did use those words specifically. And reread them as to reason for eating more.

If you are not losing or gaining weight (besides expected water weight) you ARE eating at maintenance, called TDEE.

As you and many others have shown though, and those studies you've read.

If you eat too low for what your body wants - it will slow down what it burns. Your TDEE is less than potential.

So your starting "potential" TDEE you might say was 2000.

You ate 900 calories and had a deficit of 1100, and lost over 2 lbs weekly for a few weeks.

You kept eating 900, but then lost 1.75, then 1.5, 1.25, 1, 1, 1. TDEE probably dropped from weight loss to 1900 at this point.

The results there show that even though on paper it may appear to be a 1000 calorie deficit - it's obviously only 500, right?

Your body stressed, adapted, and slowed down, becoming more metabolically efficient.

Your real suppressed TDEE is now 1400, it is no longer the potential 1900 for new weight.

So now you think perhaps that 900 eating level was bad idea, so you eat 1400, should be a 500 cal deficit still, right, 1900-1400?

Wrong - no deficit to actual suppressed TDEE.

Now why wouldn't the body go back up if you are eating at 1400 now?

Well, as that study showed, it took 3 months of eating at suppressed maintenance level to "unsuppress" about 200 calories worth. It was 500 suppressed, became close to 300 suppressed after 3 months of eating more.

There are so many side posts in this topic, have to look at the context for your question on gainng more. No you won't be gaining 18-20 lbs, you already did that and basically didn't lose it. You still may gain 1-2 lbs of fast water weight though.

So again, your are NOT eating 250 less than real TDEE, or you would be losing a slow 1 lb every 2 weeks right now.

Just as you were not eating 500 less than real TDEE before, because you did NOT lose 1 lb weekly.

Your Fitbit is NOT correct right now. It is reflecting potential, what you could be burning if your metabolism wasn't so screwed up right now.

But look at that - your are eating 250 more than before when you maintained, and doing better than maintaining.

So again, the test has at least shown that 1400 was NOT your potential TDEE despite no weight loss or gain. It was obviously suppressed.

Because now you are eating around 1650 and still not gaining.

Next up, after another week, is eating at what Fitbit says is potential TDEE everyday for 2 weeks, to confirm no gain or loss.

Who knows, Fitbit may be underestimating, and you could eat even more to maintain! Which means getting to eat even more to lose, compared to how little you were eating.

How's energy level during the day now? Easier to stay warm or don't feel as cold?

[Heybales]

Case13

Here's an example, see if you can tell if this look right, or if something must be wrong.

Burn about 2300 calories daily on average. We'll assume Fitbit estimate is good.

Eat about 1100 calories daily on average. We'll assume food logging is accurate.

So on paper, wouldn't that appear to cause a deficit of about 1200 calories daily, right?

That should mean over 2 lbs lost every week. 8 lbs in a month.

So would it appear something is amiss if the actual weight loss was only 2 lbs monthly, right?

Also, wanted you to see a case study for recovery, to see it is possible with what you are doing.

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A similar case study was published by Jampolis (2004).

A 51 year old patient complained of a 15 lb weight gain over the last year despite beginning a strenuous triathlon and marathon training program (2 hours per day, 5-6 days per week).

A 3 day diet analysis estimated a daily intake of only 1000-1200 Calories.

An indirect calorimetry revealed a resting metabolic rate of 950 Calories (28% below predicted for age, height, weight, and gender).

After medications and medical conditions such as hypothyroidism and diabetes where ruled out, the final diagnosis was over-training and undereating. The following treatment was recommended:

• Increase daily dietary intake by approximately 100 Calories per week to a goal of 1500 calories
• 32% protein; 35% carbohydrates; 33% fat
• Consume 5-6 small meals per day
• Small amounts of protein with each meal or snack
• Choose high fiber starches
• Select mono- and poly- unsaturated fats
• Restrict consumption of starch with evening meals unless focused around training
• Take daily multi-vitamin and mineral supplement
• Perform whole body isometric resistance training 2 times per week

After 6 weeks the patient's resting metabolism increased 35% to 1282 Calories per day (only 2% below predicted).

The patient also decreased percent fat from 37% to 34%, a loss of 5 lbs of body fat.

Jampolis MB (2004) Weight Gain - Marathon Runner / Triathlete. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 36(5) S148.

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[Naomi94]

Hi Case13,

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles. That must be very difficult for you. What does your doctor recommend?

[Case13]

I've been thinking that very same thing as of late.  Eating freely, so long as they are healthy things.  We'll give it a try.  It can't be worse at this point...

[Case13]

We've ruled out that it is a heart issue although it is giving me intense chest pains. We've ruled out thyroid. I've been given a diuretic but with the warning of taking it "as needed" and 1/2 of the lowest dose available because it may decrease my blood pressure too low. Right now... really no answers. But still up and down swelling to the point of getting stretch marks and causing a lot of pressure/pain. Also still getting random stomach pains and extreme chest/side pains. A handful of doctors yet to see I suppose.

[Case13]

I think this sounds right and it sounds like a plan.  It still may be something medically complicating and stressing my body.  I've read more about how different stresses work towards fat storage.  In a way it almost makes sense how whenever I give up on dieting and eat based on appetite, I tend to lose weight.  It's so hard to let go!!!  But it could be what I need to release that additional stress on my body that already has it's own stress to deal with from other issues.

[Heybales]

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@Case13 wrote:

I think this sounds right and it sounds like a plan.  It still may be something medically complicating and stressing my body.  I've read more about how different stresses work towards fat storage.  In a way it almost makes sense how whenever I give up on dieting and eat based on appetite, I tend to lose weight.  It's so hard to let go!!!  But it could be what I need to release that additional stress on my body that already has it's own stress to deal with from other issues.

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The stress induced hormone cortisol can also cause water retention up to 10 lbs if at a constantly elevated level, besides its focus of putting fat on the belly.

And very true, your body is dealing with constant stresses. That's why all the studies usually use participants with no health issues except overweight to whatever amount they are testing with. Unless study is addressing a specific disease like PCOS or diabetes or metabolic syndrome, then they get real specific as to how bad is one dealing with that.

So even when studies show something is reasonable, that's for average healthy person, you may be far removed from that, or perhaps not that far.

But it's why if a healthy body shows problems at certain level, you can bet yours has easier chance to.

Great idea letting go. I'd still log, just try to reach that TDEE shown by Fitbit, remove all weight loss goals so eating level matches burning level.

Since your food logging has shown pretty accurate, if the weighing is adding unneeded complexity, don't worry about that part on foods, measure as normal.

[Case13]

Not sure if these numbers have much to do with the glucose levels we've discussed but I did get results from a recent test. My levels have gone down by about 38 points but are still within range.

I haven't weighed myself as of late. Although overall I stuck to burning the same as I ate over the last week, what I are wasn't as good as it normally is.

I also started the diuretic I was prescribed. Doesn't seem to be doing anything including helping me aluff extra water. Does anyone know if it takes a few days of being in the system?

More doctor's appointments tomorrow. Overall just trying to discover the full picture behind such a rapid weight gain that keeps going up but also the severe chest pains and often stomach pains that have come with it. Not a fan!

[Heybales]

That is blood glucose, body tries to keep that at set amount, nothing to do with the glycogen stores in muscles. Which actually cannot be put in to the blood stream for use elsewhere - it's for the muscle only.

Many follow the 80/20 rule with their diet. 80% "good" foods, whatever that means to you. 20% "bad" foods in moderation, whatever that means to you. Some want wine every night, they make it fit. Some want a cup of ice cream every day, they make it fit.

But if box of cookies becomes a serving size - then perhaps not a good idea.

Perhaps you don't have the extra water stored where the diuretic is going to flush it.

Just keep in the back of your mind, Dr's in US are NOT trained on nutrition unless that is their speciality and continued focus, not more than a course with all there other stuff through the years. Ask them questions they don't know, they may be honest and say so and refer you elsewhere correctly, they may not want to show up they don't know and will give you something that is about worthless and cookie cutter - "here's the pamphlet, read it".

Sodium levels they should know about, so food logs regarding that would be useful for that and potassium actually, and amount of water you drink would be good too.

[Case13]

Yes. I did give them my eating habits, water levels, etc.

For the first time in years, my potassium levels are spot on. My sodium levels have increased over the years but are still in range.

Ironically when I was maintaining the lower weight I generally am, I was on a sodium based medication that far exceeded any daily sodium limit yet I didn't retain water, mostly. I don't really understand the science of all of this. I just know I really, really don't feel right and although I have had years of similar fluctuations it has never come up quite like this.

[Case13]

I'm not sure I can take much more of this and not a lot of people are willing to support me. Even if I were pigging out, I am gaining weight faster than overeating could do and I'm not over eating!

When I upped my calories, as suggested, I lost weight at first. It was the first weight loss since this sudden increase happened. So maybe you think it's all me. It's how I eat. It's not walking enough. But no.

I've had lots of doctor appointments. I had one last Tuesday and another on Monday. In that time, I gained five pounds. I didn't think much of it because over the weekend, I hiked 16 miles, 10 of which were in a river anywhere from knee to waist deep. I expected to retain water from that. But now, a week later, I've gained yet another two.

I get two types of advice. Either someone tells me I should eat better not knowing that I cook my meals at least five days a week and eat an incredibly balance diet filled with vegetables. I don't cook with butter or salt. I hardly utilize bread in my meals and eat pastas only every other week or so. Red meat is also sparingly. I cook mainly with tomatoes, vinegar, or lemon juice for flavor. I don't eat desserts. I'm lactose intolerant so my diet is never high in cheese and I never drink regular milk. I do eat my breakfast. I don't drink much soda and by much I mean the equivalent of 20 ounces in a week, maybe.

The other side of the "advice" is that I'm fine. I'm treated as though I should simply get over it because I am in a healthy weight range and I shouldn't try to be losing.

But I'm not so much trying to lose as trying to stop the gain.

I'm up 22 pounds since the start of February without any over eating to show for it.

I walk an adverge of 10,000 steps a day and hit 15, 20, 25 regularly.

After a lot of fretting, doctors won't even give me advice because they say "it's not that bad... But a little weird..." They all seem to say that it's most likely due to medication - one I can't stop taking because my entre life wouldn't be possible without this kind of help.

So is losing weight despite medication even possible?

I also don't have genetics on my side. My entire family is very much overweight.

It has been suggested to let my metabolism heal by eating less AND moving less. I've done my best to slow down and that still consists of 16 miles of hiking.

I'm prepping for a lot of major hikes in the next year but if this rapid weight gain continues on the rise, I don't think I'll make it physically or emotionally.

This entire ordeal is weighing in (no pun intended) intensely on my mood and self image. If I ever get on a scale or try to fit into any of my clothing, I immediately just want to give up on everything. But I can't live in stretchy pants forever. I have a job to go to now and places to be.

I don't have to lose the number on the scale but I do need to lose about two inches in size and regain muscle mass.

How?

How do I do that? How do I stop busting through pant sizes and reporting pounds gained over pounds lost.

My medicine has a 2% reported rate of weight gain and a possible side effect of constipation (although I don't notice really?) My greatest vice is coffee and after reading it's ability to cause water retention, I have cut to two cups (12-16 oz) a day.

I'm not sure if I should lean toward starvation or hit the gym harder than ever at this point. My daily walking goal is 15,000. That gives me 2400+ calories burned when I reach it. I usually have to TRY if I eat more calories than that in a day. In my years of calorie tracking, only about 5 times ever have I gone far beyond that intake in one day.

But the help I need at this point is desperate. I can't live in this lack of control.

[Heybales]

Sorry to hear about all the stress and basically non-answers.

That much fast weight gain, after already having had fast weight gain, defies the normal body responses of coming out of eating too little, and it wouldn't be that much either.

So you appear to have non-normal body response to water weight gain, because again - too fast for fat if you even were over eating.

And if taking meds that has possible side effects of weight gain, I'd investigate that medicine in depth.

Is it weight gain from water, or is it weight gain because it slows your metabolism way down?

That would have to be one nasty slow down for that much gain to still be a big part of it fat, but still.

Also, if metabolism was being slowed down, that just means something is not being done. Hair, nails, skin are not being grown at normal rate or as good - so that should be noticable.

Now, one of the things metabolism spends energy on is indeed managing water in the body. So I see a connection there.

But research that med as to what the weight gain was in the 2%, how much, and how long in the study. If not near what you have gained - then that ain't it.

Have you had blood test that measured cortisol level - if so where was it?

The acceptable range is very wide, but the top of it is not good if always elevated there. Spikes good, constant bad.

Water retention is result. 10 lbs easily.

Need to unstress. May need those hikes for that more than you know.

Keep trying to unstress body by eating up near that Fitbit estimate - unless your med research shows it slows metabolism down.

[Case13]

Thank you. Your care in responding helps more than you know.

Is there a medical abbreviation for cortisol? I've had two or three blood tastes as of late. Lots of data I can give you.

I've tried to find the detail of Trazodone's weight gain effect. Can't be sure. But I do know a basic thyroid panel shows elevated from my norm, but still in the norm. So I don't think it would be at a super drastic slow down based on that?

I read in one forum that someone said to expect 6g/Approx 13 pounds of weight gain. I've gained more than that. While I am eating more than I had in the stage I was damaging my metabolism involuntarily due to the dislocated jaw issue, I still am not drastically overeating. I'm moving a lot more too!

If I could just get a really nasty stomach flu, life could seem normal again. I'm joking of course. I believe that is part of the problem. While most of my recent years I have have looked healthy, I believe it has been a muscle lacking kind of skinny and not a true, all around healthy. That is what I want now. I don't want to give in to an age or an expectation that life simply makes this happen. I don't want to give in and go shopping for new, bigger clothes.

Many posts back, you said I may get another influx and gain a lot by eating more. When can I expect a plateau from that kind of reaction?

Is there any sort of vitamin or herb to take to counter this genetic/medical issue?