Help: Weight Loss and body fat increasing !!

[ManuMeuh]

Hello!

I am French so sorry for my poor English level: i come here because i have a story and a little problem/question…

I hope this community will be more helpful than the French one 😉

First of all, a bit of “Storytelling”:

I have a FitBit One for more than 1 year. The main purpose was first only to discover my number of steps months after months (I like walks and statistics) and I had no “Weight Loss” goal…

Then, 5-6 months ago, quite stressfull moments got me to get bigger and bigger, then, few weeks ago I had a revelation: THIS MUST STOP!

So I began to really take care of my alimentation and I began to use the all Fitbit interface… And when I say all, it’s really all: daily weight, every aliments and calories eaten and weighted, every physical activity… And I also used the electronic coach included (the goal was to loose 5kg in 6 months: I wanted to discover my motivation before begin to be more ambitious).

And… it’s really working for the moment!! And faster than expected (I almost reached my goal 1 months and half after the beginning). But suddenly my old fashion scale broke up, and I decide to break my piggy-bank and invest in a FitBit Aria smart Scale (for me, the automatic filling of my every day weight to the dashboard by wifi was really a good way to keep de dynamic up !). This is how I discovered the % BODY FAT calculation.

And so, my problem: the more I lose weight, the more I gain body fat!!

And I don’t understand it (you can see the graphics below… In french, sorry!): I understand this figures that my efforts on my alimentation (I only took attention to the quantities first, I will check de kind of food eaten later) and on my physical activities (walk, swimming, bike… As never in my life) lead me to the good way on the weight, but in the very bad move on the body fat %!!

(In green, the body fat increasing. The blue sign is to point the date when I had the Aria scale.)

Does anyone understand and can explain me these figures? With all this sport, i can’t lose muscles right?

When I will have definitely reached my current goal, my real goal is to lose 5 more kilos till the end of the year… I would like to be sure that I go on the right way and that I don’t do any kind of wrong things…

Thanks for your help 

[Corney]

When you are losing weight but your % body fat increases, your body is
making up for calories not consumed by metabolizing lean body mass, mostly
muscle. If you weigh 150 pounds your body needs 2250 calories to maintain
that weight, that's why diets alone never work to lose fat. In order to
force the body to change from burning carbohydrates to burning fat, you
must do at least 30 minutes of aerobic exercise continually in your
training zone. In the first 20 minutes the body burns carbohydrates, but
switches after 20 minutes to burning fat in order to retain some stored
carbohydrates for emergency situations. I've stated this fact on many
posts, but it seems it has been lost on some people. If you combine at
least 30 minutes of aerobic exercise along with some weight lifting, which
will conserve your muscle mass, because the body see that you need that
muscle. That is another reason that IF or fasting is a fools errand. If
the body thinks it's starving, it will metabolize lean body mass before it
uses up all it's stored carbohydrates. It metabolizes it's fat stores only
as a last resort. The problem with diets is people decrease their calorie
intake until they reach the desired weight, than go back to their regular
diet and gain back what they have lost plus more, because they have lost
muscle mass, thus are burning fewer calories then they were before starting
the diet, this is called the yo-yo effect. lose 15 pounds, gain back 20
pounds. If you don't take what I say to heart, then you may lose weight,
but your % of body fat will increase.

[Corney]

If you do 30 minutes of aerobic exercise continually at least 4 times per
week and lift weight at least twice a week you will lose weight, and the
weight you lose will be fat!

[Jotex]

@Corney - thank you so much for taking the time to post these facts one more time! As a newbie to this community, and combining the keto diet and IF, what for me is a tremendous shift from previous habits, I have been disheartend (depressed!) that the BF was so high. {I only recently bought a scale that measures BF -- so I was shocked!!!} At any rate, your advice spurs me on to continue with my daily aerobic exercise, stretching, and to get to the gym for the workout with weights at least twice {has been once} a week. Thanks a million.

[Corney]

Jotex, I can't encourage people enough when they say they want to lose
weight, they really want to lose fat. Diets, any diets, without aerobic
exercise and weight training are doomed to fail. It seem some individuals
are always looking for the easy, effortless way to lose fat, IT DOES NOT
EXIST! Good luck in your future endeavors, I'm pulling for you!

[shipo]

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@Corney wrote:
Jotex, I can't encourage people enough when they say they want to lose
weight, they really want to lose fat. Diets, any diets, without aerobic
exercise and weight training are doomed to fail. It seem some individuals
are always looking for the easy, effortless way to lose fat, IT DOES NOT
EXIST! Good luck in your future endeavors, I'm pulling for you!

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Funny, I'm a "foodie", to me the easy way out is to exercise; ain't no way I'm able to diet, it's just too difficult.  

[Heybales]

@Corney wrote:
When you are losing weight but your % body fat increases, your body is
making up for calories not consumed by metabolizing lean body mass, mostly
muscle. If you weigh 150 pounds your body needs 2250 calories to maintain
that weight, that's why diets alone never work to lose fat. In order to
force the body to change from burning carbohydrates to burning fat, you
must do at least 30 minutes of aerobic exercise continually in your
training zone. In the first 20 minutes the body burns carbohydrates, but
switches after 20 minutes to burning fat in order to retain some stored
carbohydrates for emergency situations. I've stated this fact on many
posts, but it seems it has been lost on some people. If you combine at
least 30 minutes of aerobic exercise along with some weight lifting, which
will conserve your muscle mass, because the body see that you need that
muscle. That is another reason that IF or fasting is a fools errand. If
the body thinks it's starving, it will metabolize lean body mass before it
uses up all it's stored carbohydrates. It metabolizes it's fat stores only
as a last resort. The problem with diets is people decrease their calorie
intake until they reach the desired weight, than go back to their regular
diet and gain back what they have lost plus more, because they have lost
muscle mass, thus are burning fewer calories then they were before starting
the diet, this is called the yo-yo effect. lose 15 pounds, gain back 20
pounds. If you don't take what I say to heart, then you may lose weight,
but your % of body fat will increase.

I'm sorry to say there is so much myth and fallacy and inaccuracy in this comment.

Not facts at all.

Let's start with the fact that any scale measurement method of BF% isn't more accurate than 5% either direction of reality - and that's if you even manage to present a body that is exactly hydrated as last time - about impossible.

So seeing BF% go up absolutely does not lead to your following conclusions.

2nd - You must do 30 min of exercise to switch from burning carbs to fat?!!!!!

That doesn't even apply to exercise that it is at least closest to possibly resembling a comment on.

Your body at rest, for the vast majority of the day - is burning 90-93% stored fat as energy source (glucose for the brain unless keto adapted). It does NOT burn carbs first. (after eating when insulin goes up, what you ate is used as energy source, carbs included if not needed to be stored in liver and muscle stores to top those off)

When you start exercising and intensity keeps going up - then it starts burning more and more carbs until you get to Anaerobic Threshold (Lactate Threshold) when not enough oxygen to burn fat, nor carbs complete for that matter aerobically - hence the buildup of lactate acid.

You also don't start exercise burning carbs only. You burn a ratio of fat and carbs - intensity and fitness level and training focus determines what ratio.

Initially the carbs is supplied from blood sugar and slowly moves over to muscle glucose - that can be sped up by fasted training at lower intensity regularly. But fat is still burned. Perhaps that is the 20 min you speak of.

Initially the ratio of carbs:fat is slightly higher carbs until it slips into final ratio appropriate for higher fat%. That's usually over 30 min unless good training to make it faster.

But it is a bunch of bunk the way you described it.

3rd - your description of saving fat is if your are actually STARVING - not skipping a meal, not doing IF. Like no food for more than 3 days on end.

Since LBM (Lean Body Mass - opposite of FM Fat Mass) includes muscle AND even water weight (everything but fat) - everyone should expect to lose LBM when you lose weight - your body needs less blood volume, less interstitial water - for a smaller body.

Agreed many cause themselves to lose muscle mass - but hardly first.

You'd have to setup a very specific exercise routine (anaerobic intense cardio) and eating routine (low carb and protein) and eating level (extreme deficit, which many do end up at) in order to start causing muscle mass loss.

And it's not even that you are like burning it for energy, that doesn't happen unless again at point of actual starvation. Rather it's just not built back up as it's broken down every day as normal process - because your eaten amino acids are used for basic metabolic functions as required, just not enough to use for repairing the muscle back. So they slowly aren't built back up, the amino acids from that normal breakdown are already used as fuel when converted, at least some of them.

Correct description on why diets fail so many - they do make it extreme - something they can't sustain with food choices not a part of normal life, and indeed go back to eating for a bigger body. Even those that have lost weight reasonably and lost no muscle can end up doing that.

[Jotex]

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@Corney wrote:
Jotex, I can't encourage people enough when they say they want to lose
weight, they really want to lose fat. Diets, any diets, without aerobic
exercise and weight training are doomed to fail. It seem some individuals
are always looking for the easy, effortless way to lose fat, IT DOES NOT
EXIST! Good luck in your future endeavors, I'm pulling for you!

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@Corney - thanks again. It has taken me years to figure that out ... only now. I appreciate your encouraging comments which confirm that. 

[Evercarn]

33% protein is far too high. the basic need is 10%. 30% fat is way to high. The need is about 15%. Protein doesn't make muscles if it did we'd all be huge. Carbs make the energy to work, work makes muscle, check out vegan body builders if you doubt this info. 

[Corney]

Evercarn: the fact is that every thing we eat if not utilized by the body
is eventually turned into fat. If your weight is going down but percent of
fat is going up then you are burning lean body mass, namely muscle. Do
more aerobic exercise in your training zone for at least 30 minutes 4-5
times a week and add weight lifting. With resistance exercise the body
realizes you are using your muscle and will be less likely to use muscle as
an energy source. It sounds like you are on a calories restricted diet.
It takes 15 calories per pound to maintain your present weight. A 150
pound person needs 2250 calories per day, if you restrict your intake to
1800 calories your body still says it needs 2250. It will first utilize
carbohydrates, but will not deplete all the carbohydrates in your body, but
saves some for emergency situations( fight or flight), next it will start
to use muscle to make up for those lost calories, fat is saved for last
because it is the most efficient way to store calories. Diets without
exercise are doomed to fail, because when you reach your target weight you
will start eating what you normally ate, but during the diet you lost
muscle mass and muscle burns calories 24 hours a day, so in effect the body
due to the diet is now burning fewer calories a day. Resuming your normal
eating habits will cause you to gain back the calories you lost plus more,
it's referred as yoyoing which is unhealthy. Training zone: 220 minus your
age times 75% should be your target heart rate. Good luck!

[Julia_G]

I am sorry, but I have to agree with @Heybales that a lot of what you say is, at best, so simplified as to be nearly nonsense, and some of it is actual nonsense.  

Lets just begin with your repeated assertion that a 150 lb person needs 2250 calories per day.  That is, of course nonsense, because it depends on your energy expenditure.  However, assuming you really mean to refer to BMR (basal metabolic rate) calories, even that is highly questionable.  Caloric requirements vary with gender, age, height and weight (as well as activity).

I don't know enough about metabolism to evaluate fully your other assertions, but when anyone begins with stuff I know is false I am pretty sceptical about the rest.  And I know this is voodoo talk: "With resistance exercise the body realizes you are using your muscle and will be less likely to use muscle as an energy source.". (Not that I am against resistance training -- quite the opposite -- but I am quite sure that your body doesn't "realize" anything!

And your statement about diets always failing, etc I know is not true, as is your view of intermittent fasting.

Finally the 220 minus your age x 75% as target heartrate is another very questionable generalisation.  It definitely doesn't work for me!

I am sorry to be blunt, but I feel that for balance it is important to add another voice questioning your claims.

However, your basic message that to lose weight -- and fat -- that exercise as well as diet is beneficial, is a good message.

[Evercarn]

I'm a cyclist I get about 10 hours in a week averaging 75-80% mhr I average 2250 calories/day and I work a physical job. 

[Jotex]

OK y’all, let’s face facts. We are all completely different, have different ages, lifestyles, body chemistry, needs, etc. I appreciate advice, and suggestions. But I find quarrelling and stating and/or disputing ‘facts’ not at all useful.

I have increased both cardio and weight training, and am trying to follow a keto diet (70-20-10) as much as possible AND cut back calories to under 1000 a day (I am female, 63, 5’3”, and moderately active). Intermittent fasting is currently also part of my own personal plan. 

I have been trying for years to lose fat (weight) and inches and get fitter. I have arthritis, so all this helps me with mobility and less pain and stiffness. 

I hope everyone is content with whatever they are doing, or will seek helpful tips, as I did. Wishing each one success in reaching their personal goals, and .... a wonderful weekend! 

[Julia_G]

@Jotex, wow!  Less than 1000 calories per day and super low carb sounds pretty extreme.  I wish you best of luck, but I expect this will only work, if at all, for a short time. Let us know how you get on.

(And sometimes when people simply state falsehoods as facts it is important to make a correction so nonsense doesn't keep spreading)

We are all different, of course. But, just a coincidence, I'm also 63 and 5'3!

[Jotex]

Hi @Julia_G - Thanks, I think (?), for your encouragement. Perhaps I have become a little too sensitive, but I found this sounded a little smug: “but I expect this will only work, if at all, for a short time. Let us know how you get on.” Why not just wish me success? That would be encouraging. 

Anyway, my progress has been slow, but on average only a pound a week. I admit, I would like to lose (fat/weight) quicker — much quicker, in fact. But I want to be healthy, avoid the yo-yo effect, so am willing to invest the time and effort. The plan is .... down tve road apiece ... to gradually shift the macros to more balance between carbs, proteins and fats, and increase calorie intake just enough for my daily energy needs. 

Nice to know I’m not the only ‘not tall’,  63-year old on this journey! 🤗

[Julia_G]

Hi, @Jotex, I do wish you the best if luck -- as I said!  And congratulations on a pound a week.  That sounds like a steady, healthy weight loss.

The reason I was being sceptical was that less than 1000 calories, super low carb and intense working out is pretty hard to keep up and you shouldn't feel bad if you can't manage that for any length of time -- I think most people couldn't.

Slower weight loss is frustrating, I agree, but I think the evidence is that it is more likely to avoid the dreaded yo-yo effect.  Even a plateau for a while will help reset your body to its new, lower weight.

Of course, I have no idea of how much weight you want to lose or what successes or difficulties you have encountered so far.  If you would like to look at the weekly weigh-in thread I think you will find lots of really encouraging people to help you on your way.

[Jotex]

@Julia_G - thanks! You are right, I don’t make it every day; but on average, I do 5 out of 7 days (so far). Mind you, I know myself and my ‘sneaking’ habits well enough, I actually put 800 kcal as my daily goal in Myfitnesspal, so I will be within the 1,000 range most of the time.

I want to lose at least 20 pounds, but get discouraged at my slow progress (only 1-¾ years til target reached!!!?). I may join a different gym where there are more weight machines (probably said that wrong), to see if that will speed things up.

Will check out the other threaded discussion you mentioned, too. Thanks.

[Dominique]

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@Evercarn wrote:

33% protein is far too high. the basic need is 10%. 30% fat is way to high. The need is about 15%. Protein doesn't make muscles if it did we'd all be huge. Carbs make the energy to work, work makes muscle, check out vegan body builders if you doubt this info. 

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Protein intake should really be considered in proportion to your bodyweight (or your lean mass), not in proportion to total calories. If activity is very high, carbs are going to be high (or fats, if one decides to adapt oneself to using more fats as fuel), so protein is going to be correspondingly lower (in relative terms). And if activity is relatively low, protein is going to be higher in relative terms (though it may stay the same in absolute terms).

You’re right: protein doesn’t make muscle all by itself, but it can help preserve existing muscle, especially when food is restricted. When your body needs protein and it can’t find enough in your blood stream, it will break some from your muscle. If you supply enough of it via your dietary intake, it won’t have to break as much from your muscle.

As to vegan bodybuilders, yes, there are some, but they would be more the exceptions confirming the rule. They must be about as common as keto-adapted marathon runners. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it’s the optimal way to do it. Building the absolute amount of muscle (which is what competitive bodybuilding is about) as a vegan is an uphill battle (compared to people eating dairy and meat), just like running marathons at an elite level as a low-carber.

[Corney]

Julia G Perhaps I over simplified some statements. If you believe that
weight bearing exercises improves bone strength, it's because the body
senses that there is increased stress placed on the bones and it needs to
send more calcium and minerals to meet the increased stress. The same goes
for muscles, if they are being used they are getting stronger so will not
be metabolized to make up for a calorie deficit. Your body changes from
day to day depending what you did the previous day, I mean muscle and bone
strength. An extreme example is when early astronauts came back from space
they had to be assisted to walk because of the atrophy of muscle and bone
due to the absence of gravity while in space. As far as 15 calories per
pound to maintain weight that is for the average sedentary individual, as
opposed to BMR which is calories burnt while being completely immobile. You
can believe what you want, I don't care anymore. I'm tired of someone
always disagreeing with something I post, and most of the time it's the
same 2-3 individuals, but I also get more people that seem to agree with
what I have to say. Lets just agree to not agree without calling something
I write voodoo.

[Heybales]

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@Jotex wrote:

Hi @Julia_G - Thanks, I think (?), for your encouragement. Perhaps I have become a little too sensitive, but I found this sounded a little smug: “but I expect this will only work, if at all, for a short time. Let us know how you get on.” Why not just wish me success? That would be encouraging. 

Anyway, my progress has been slow, but on average only a pound a week. I admit, I would like to lose (fat/weight) quicker — much quicker, in fact. But I want to be healthy, avoid the yo-yo effect, so am willing to invest the time and effort. The plan is .... down tve road apiece ... to gradually shift the macros to more balance between carbs, proteins and fats, and increase calorie intake just enough for my daily energy needs. 

Nice to know I’m not the only ‘not tall’,  63-year old on this journey! 🤗

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Would it actually be encouraging to wish someone success on a journey if you knew the route they were taking was full of huge tire puncturing thorns and dangerous area with no help and poisonous snakes - but right over there was another route much safe and would get them to their destination much safer and easier - successful in the end?

You know better through life experience that the former is not actually being supportive at all unless someone is just a lousy friend and perhaps not a nice individual overall.

Just saying as far as the sensitivity to people being concerned rather than just wishing you well on whatever route you are going - people with experience are great when they don't desire others to go down a road they have tried or seen others try and crash on.

To your goal though - slower is better that close to goal weight - purposely is better than your body adapting and forcing it on you to protect itself - that's just stressful for the body and usually not great effects later from it. So hope your slowness is from your purposeful changes to make it slow.

In fact, when within 10-15 lbs to goal weight - 1/2 lb weekly would be more reasonable.

That's a 250 cal deficit to daily maintenance on average - that will allow your workouts to be better than with a big deficit - and the right workouts being done well can transform the body more than if not done well.

In fact many find at that point the changes in the body make it appear more weight has been lost than reality - since no one sees you on the scale in the morning anyway, you look great.

The problem with shorter women needing to do lots of cardio just to increase their daily burn so they can eat at levels others can eat at is well known, seems like every running event has these holes/gaps in the sea of heads until you see they are filled with shorter women.

Good job keeping the resistance training in there still though, so very important as you get older.

You likely have no idea how much that will improve when you move to a smaller deficit, and then the changes that will come to the body even more.

[Mukluk4]

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@Heybales wrote:

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Would it actually be encouraging to wish someone success on a journey if you knew the route they were taking was full of huge tire puncturing thorns and dangerous area with no help and poisonous snakes - but right over there was another route much safe and would get them to their destination much safer and easier - successful in the end?

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Sometimes it's just better to let strangers do what they want to do instead of being all self-righteous.  What works for you may or may not work for someone else.  Since you've probably never taken that "other" journey, you have no idea what's there.  Just because Rattlesnakes live in rocky formations, doesn't mean I'm going to get bit by or even see one as I tour the Grand Canyon

If that's the journey they want to take, they are comfortable with that decision, and they are successful, who the hell are you to preach something different to someone you've never met or invested any real time in?