weight loss and calorie counting....

[dondiego]

My wife and I have been using our fitbits for 2 months and we average 10,000 steps a day. In addition we are consistently UNDER our calorie goal daily and we have not lost A POUND!! I hear all these stories about weight loss and I think they are a myth, unless the individual has been totally sedate. We don't eat bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, refined sugar, soda or diet sodas. We drink TONS of water and yet nothing.....we don't get it!!!

[BWright1175]

@OCDOC, while I did not read it word for word, I skimmed to what I viewed as the relevant parts.

I'll also note that I didn't not say anything about "low cal."  I said "eat less."

Yes, 7 glasses of wine... depending on how many ounces per glass, somewhere in the range of 600 to 800 calories.  But how many calories are now absent due to the drastic decrease in bread, milk, butter, sweets, potatoes and beer that he's no longer consuming?

He made a lifestyle change, plain and simple.  He's eating less.

And something else you need to keep in mind is people were much more active a couple hundred years ago.  No TV, internet, etc... people worked harder, walked more, etc.  So regardless of what you consider to be "low cal" or not, it was obviously low enough for him to lose weight based on all the other factors of his life.

[OCDOC]

@BWright1175

All due respect, B, but having a conversation about this letter without you having actually read it is like talking about a movie with somebody who has only seen a few trailers.

Your points are discussed in the letter; I don't mind if you choose to not read it. We can continue the conversation after you read it..otherwise let's not bother...no hard feelings 🙂  R

[BWright1175]

@OCDOC, As I said, I skimmed to the relevant parts, which honestly only cover a few pages in regards to actual changes he made.  The rest is mostly fluff, general "conversation" and a few additional notes of other foods he decided are either ok or not...

But to humor you, I've gone back and read every single word.

And as I said before, he's basically "eating less."

Less bread and butter (more protein)... less (whole) milk... less beer... less sugar... less starch... more good vegetables.  And yes, 4 to 7 glasses of wine.

I'm still not seeing any magic here.  He made a lifestyle change and chose to eat healthier.

What am I missing?

[OCDOC]

@BWright1175  Here's what you need to see:

He mentions that when he exercised more, he got stronger but had an appetite increase that he was unable to ignore..got fatter.

He mentions that he was prescribed 'moderation' ie eat less (without being told what to eat less of), which he did, but he got sickly with boils/carbuncles...and he ended up fatter.

He was 65, 5'5", 202 lbs...resting BMR 1628.

His sample day according to MFP was over 1800 cals--I put him on an 1800 LCHF diet...he was nowhere near meeting LCHF targets:

Let's turn the question around:

He's NOT reducing 'calories'/"eating less" (which had made him sick); he's eating MORE than his BMR including wine. He mentions nothing about 'exercising more'. However, he lost 46 pounds at age 65 on this diet...150 years ago!! Before the advent of any of the stuff we use or talk about today.

What are YOU (and many others) missing? 🙂  

PS Thanks for reading the letter!  Regards  R

[BWright1175]

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@OCDOC wrote:

@BWright1175  Here's what you need to see:

He mentions that when he exercised more, he got stronger but had an appetite increase that he was unable to ignore..got fatter.

He mentions that he was prescribed 'moderation' ie eat less (without being told what to eat less of), which he did, but he got sickly with boils/carbuncles...and he ended up fatter.

He was 65, 5'5", 202 lbs...resting BMR 1628.

His sample day according to MFP was over 1800 cals:

Let's turn the question around:

He's NOT reducing 'calories' (which had made him sick); he's eating MORE than his BMR including wine. He mentions nothing about 'exercising more'. However, he lost 46 pounds at age 65 on this diet.

What are YOU (and many others) missing? 🙂  

PS Thanks for reading the letter!  Regards  R

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@OCDOC, yes, he got fatter when he exercised... because the exercise made him hungry, so he ate more.  What did he eat more of?  The horrible diet which put him overweight in the first place.

He got sick when he simply reduced calories.. because much of what he was eating was not nutritious, so when you're eating fewer calories, yet still eating poorly, your body will protest.

As for his sample diet... you're comparing an 1800 calorie diet to a resting BMR of 1628, assuming he's just going to lie in bed and eat those 1800 calories while doing nothing else.  Even a retired person moving about the house throughout the day will more than make up for that 200 calorie difference.

You're also taking some liberties with your sample diet, as a 5oz of mutton for breakfast is much higher in calories than 5oz of broiled fish... same with the nearly 600 calories of Prime Rib for dinner?

And as I said before, I didn't say he was eating a low calorie diet... I said he was eating less calories.  I'll remind you again of all the things he is NOT eating.  Bread, butter and potatoes were the main focus of his meals... note there is no notable mention of meat in his previous diet.  Milk (again, presumably whole milk due to the time period).  Sugar and pastries.  Beer.

So he goes from a diet of mostly carbs and fat to a diet of mostly protein and vegetables (and wine).  Cut out the bread... cut out the butter... cut out the milk... cut out the sugar... cut out the bad starches.

To lose weight, there must be a caloric deficit.  You must burn more than you take in, period.  He went from gaining weight while eating poorly, to losing weight while eating more healthy.

Please explain to me how he is not eating less calories.

[OCDOC]

@BWright1175

"So he goes from a diet of mostly carbs and fat to a diet of mostly protein and vegetables (and wine).  Cut out the bread... cut out the butter... cut out the milk... cut out the sugar... cut out the bad starches.

To lose weight, there must be a caloric deficit.  You must burn more than you take in, period.  He went from gaining weight while eating poorly, to losing weight while eating more healthy.

Please explain to me how he is not eating less calories."

You nailed it right there (in bold)....he IS eating less calories than previously, and he will lose weight at 1 pound per week assuming he has a TEE of eg 2300cal. The key point is WHAT CALORIES TO REDUCE/ELIMINATE! When he simply 'ate less' of his previous menu, he felt like crap and got sick.

Thanks for stating clearly the main point; a calorie is NOT just a calorie. Losing weight requires serious reduction of superfluous carbs. Simply reducing overall calories (as he tried) fails. Eating 'less' of a bad diet is not going to help.

Thanks for the conversation, B. I completely agree with your last comment in its entirety.  R

[BWright1175]

@OCDOC, sorry, I assumed that "eat less, move more" implied that the "eat less" portion also included "eat healthier," if applicable.

Many people don't really eat badly.. they just eat too much.

We're on the same page. 😄

[OCDOC]

@BWright1175

Yes B, I believe we are indeed on the same page.

Thank you for taking the time to read the letter, and for the interesting and (imo) intelligent conversation.

Rob K

PS If you ever start a page declaring that the way to succeed is to eat "mostly protein and vegetables (and wine).  Cut out the bread... cut out the butter... cut out the milk... cut out the sugar... cut out the bad starches" you will have my complete support. I wish I wasn't afraid of the wine part 🙂

Best!

[BWright1175]

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@OCDOC wrote:

PS If you ever start a page declaring that the way to succeed is to eat "mostly protein and vegetables (and wine).  Cut out the bread... cut out the butter... cut out the milk... cut out the sugar... cut out the bad starches" you will have my complete support. I wish I wasn't afraid of the wine part 🙂

Best!

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@OCDOC Don't fear the wine lol!  I belong to a wine "club," so I get several bottles a month.  We generally don't drink as much as we receive, so our wine collection is growing, but wine's really not all that bad.  Also keep in mind, you don't have to drink the whole bottle once you open it lol.

Use it for a "splurge" day or something.  This past Sunday, for example...

For dinner, my wife and I shared a lean, 8 oz ribeye (pan seared in a cast iron pan) covered in a red wine sauce made with some good french wine, shiitake mushrooms, shallots and butter, along with a side of steamed broccoli and cauliflower.

Yes, that was a 700 calorie meal (including us sharing the rest of the bottle of wine used to make the sauce), but that only put me up to 1800 for the day.  I wouldn't eat a dinner like that every day.. but once in a while is fine. 🙂

[OCDOC]

@BWright1175

That rib-eye meal sounds awesome! 🙂

My wife and I actually discussed wine yesterday..I've been avoiding it mainly because my appetite goes nuts when I have a drink or two...at least it did before I started behaving/losing weight.

I believe an experiment is due...a nice meal with a glass or 2 of nice wine. If I don't lose my mind and eat 5000 calories then maybe it will be a 'once a week' treat.

PS Do you notice any 'appetite stim' when you have a glass or 2?  Rob

[BWright1175]

@OCDOC, no appetite stimulation for me.  However, anytime we drink wine it's generally with the evening meal, or soon thereafter while watching a movie or something.

We do hit up a winery on occasion, but it's also with the plan of "snacking" while we have a glass or two.

I guess it all boils down to how you plan for it 🙂

[Dominique]

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@OCDOC wrote:

Ok D, you are a die hard 'a calorie is a calorie' proponent. It's also clear that 'eat less exercise more' is the only thing that matters when you discuss weight loss. 

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Yes, I believe energy balance is the primary factor of weight gain/loss. No, I don’t believe it’s the only one. Sure, things like macronutrients (how you split them), micronutrients, nutrient timing, hormones etc. do have an impact, but they all come after energy balance.

LCHF, HCLF, intermittent fasting, eating six meals a day "bodybuilder style", "clean eating", "hormone optimization", all these approaches can work for weight loss ... as long as they put you in a calorie deficit.

As to "eat less, move more", it’s not even what applied to me during my initial weight loss (three years ago, when I got my Fitbit). In my case, it was "eat more, move even more". Granted, I started from sedentary, so "out-exercising" my diet wasn’t too difficult.

[OCDOC]

Hi @Dominique

Of course I agree with you that ultimately a calorie deficit is essential for weight loss. One can only get rich by making more money than one spends 🙂

The issue is finding a way to have a long term deficit that is sustainable and healthy. Clearly you have a method that works great for you. When I was younger, 'eat less exercise more' worked like a charm. When I found myself turning into a fat old (>50) guy, nothing worked (I have tried MANY approaches in the last 5 years) until I cut carbs dramatically.

Age, gender, genetics, baseline health all factor in it seems..one size does not fit all.

However, I agree with you...ultimately it's about sustainable negative energy balance..the Holy Grail 🙂

Regards  Rob K

[lynnslaw]

It took me a week to break my plateau. I quit weighing myself every day. I think there are cosmic variables. Lol! But it broke and all good.

[lynnslaw]

Ocdoc you made me laugh. But seriously when I first started...a month ago...I couldn't get 10k steps in for anything! Now I can..it just took some lifestyle adjustments (no elevators). I love the work week challenges...those friends keep me motivated! Who wants to land in last place! Right!

[honeybunny86]

Ok this is day one of my fitbit....i only managed to take in 388 calories but burned over 900 but it saus im over my calorie count by over 170....what the heck

[Dominique]

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@SunsetRunner wrote:
3. Never skip breakfast, or any meal for that matter. What we've all heard is true- breakfast really is the most important meal of the day. It gets your metabolism going.

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Nutrient timing (number of meals during the day, times at which these meals are being eaten) is largely a matter of personal preferences. Whether you’re having a light breakfast, a hefty breakfast or no breakfast at all is not what will cause you to gain, maintain or lose weight, or boost/slow your metabolism. Total calories eaten (in relation to energy expended) is the main factor that determines that.

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4. I would recommend exercising after meals, not before. That gives your body a chance to begin burning calories after you eat breakfast, with the addition of you burning more calories when you exercise after you eat.

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Same here: doesn’t matter whether you exercise before or after meals. I personally don’t like to exercise with an empty stomach, because my performance sucks. This is especially true when lifting heavy things.

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5. It might be a good idea to burn off two meals a day, such as breakfast and dinner, but no more. If you exercise too much, your metabolism will suffer.

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I’m not sure what "burning off meals" really means. Again, nutrient timing doesn’t matter much. Bodybuilders "burn off" six meals a day. Intermittent fasters "burn off" a single meal consumed during their "eating window". Both approaches will work for weight loss, as long as they result in a caloric deficit. At to why too much exercise would harm your metabolism, I’m puzzled. 

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7. Dairy and grains are not the only foods that can mess with your metabolism. Soy, corn, and other GMO foods can slow your metabolism down.

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Lots of claims are made about what would slow your metabolism down. I’d like to see studies showing eating specific foods (dairy, soy, corn, GMO food) would cause a slow-down in metabolism. Metabolic adaptation takes place when eating and/or activity is reduced.

The main reason to avoid certain foods is if you do not tolerate them, or are allergic to them: if you don’t tolerate lactose, don’t drink milk; if you have the celiac disease, don’t eat grains that have gluten; if you’re allergic to shrimps or tomatoes, don’t eat these. If you’re insuline-resistant, avoid  carbs with a high glycemic index. If you have none of these conditions, eat everything you want; as long as total calories are in balance with your energy expenditure, this won’t "mess with your metabolism", not cause weight gain, or prevent weight loss.

[Dominique]

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@honeybunny86 wrote:
Ok this is day one of my fitbit....i only managed to take in 388 calories but burned over 900 but it says I’m over my calorie count by over 170....what the heck

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@honeybunny86: would @SebringDon’s Fitbit's Food Plan Demystified series of posts help you understand how the whole thing works?

[honeybunny86]

So apparently it says i should burn 1000 calories more than what i eat... That just seems a bit difficult. I easily surpass the step count each day but with five kids cooking cleaning and work i am trying to fit in a 30 min yoga session and an ab work out as well but goodness it seems i have to nearly starve to be on target

[Heybales]

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@honeybunny86 wrote:
So apparently it says i should burn 1000 calories more than what i eat... That just seems a bit difficult. I easily surpass the step count each day but with five kids cooking cleaning and work i am trying to fit in a 30 min yoga session and an ab work out as well but goodness it seems i have to nearly starve to be on target

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Strictly speaking - "it" only says that because "you" told it to.

You picked that weight loss plan - you got over 60 lbs to lose?

Then that's reasonable.

If not - then it's not.

If you want to lose more than just fat weight then by all means attempt it.

But suggest being smart and losing only fat weight and lower it to reasonable deficit and loss amount.

And actually, your type of activity is excellent because you do burn a lot each day, meaning even when you take off a reasonable deficit - say 500 calories - you'll likely still be eating at a level you can adhere to.

Yoga wouldn't burn much at all.

Don't think of exercise as helping to lose weight - because it really doesn't. It may help you burn more during the day, so when you eat less than that it's still enough.

But exercise is about trasforming the body, and for yoga, calming the mind. Don't view it as a calorie burner or weight loss thing.