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What do you think of the Keto diet?

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I am thinking of changing my eating lifestyle. I have looked into the Keto diet. Have you had success with it if you have tried it?

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I have not really fully got on board with this diet yet. I am taking baby step but i can say i am eating a lot better this year. My worst enemy is i can drink a bottle of red wine every night and i know this is a lot of calories that will slow down the process of weight loss.

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@bcruik - I have the same temptation and issue; however this is really a setback with keto - not only do you get 750 empty calories, you fall out of ketosis.  It's a double hangover because you have 2 layers of crap-feeling: the post-alcohol fog plus the loss of the keto high.  And I make it worse by binge eating when I drink.

 

By the way, the strongest motivation to abstain is to be experiencing a strong ketosis.  I ask myself, "why would I want to give this up?"

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High fat - low carb is not a healthy/lasting solution. I am following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's Nutritarian lifestyle, which focuses on the amount of nutrients per calorie. I highly recommend his books, "Eat to Live", and "Eat for Health" . Other books that helped me, and tens of thousands of other people are "End of Diabetes" and "End of Heart Disease", by the same author. Not only did I lose all my excess weight, but I was able to reverse my pre-diabetes and my cholesterol. There is no one I trust more than Dr. Joel Fuhrman in the area of nutrition. You can listen to some of his PBS lectures on YouTube. 

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@bcruik, I agree with @GershonSurge. The whole plant-based lifestyle is the best. I'd like to add to the list of Nutritarian doctors the name of Dr. Joel Fuhrman, who allows some meat for those who find it difficult to stay on plant based, but he recommends that we stay away from starch and processed foods. His principles are highly scientific, based on a lot of research, and 90% success rate for all those who followed his principles. Thousands of people have been healed from severe heart diseases, diabetes, auto-immune, diseases, and many others, only by changing the kind of food they put in their body. 

 

I started by replacing all starchy foods (anything that contains flour, white rice, and potatoes) with Greens, Beans, Nuts, Mushrooms, and Seeds. I used small amounts of meat, mostly as a condiment. Now, I rarely touch it. In time, I was able to replace all dairy products with soy milk, almond milk, etc., which do not have the saturated fat that the dairy products do. 

 

By the way, have you seen "What the Health" documentary? I highly recommend that you do. You can find it both on Netflix and on YouTube. 

 

Best wishes in your decision. 

 


@GershonSurgewrote:

@bcruikwrote:

I am thinking of changing my eating lifestyle. I have looked into the Keto diet. Have you had success with it if you have tried it?


There is only one way of eating that has been scientifically proven in peer reviewed studies to prevent, arrest and reverse heart disease, cure type 2 diabetes, cure obesity, prevent or arrest cancer growth, and do the same for the 15 top diseases that kill people. That is a whole food plant based diet.

 

You can read books by Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Essylstyne, Dr. Ornish, Dr. John McDougall, Dr. Gregor,  and others to learn the mechanisms. 

 

Choose keto if you like, but choose whole food, plant based for health.



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@Bogdelwrote:

High fat - low carb is not a healthy/lasting solution.  


@Bogdel - I agree.  High fat - low carb is not a healthy/lasting solution.  High fat - low carb is THE healthy/lasting solution - for mental clarity, reduced inflammation and bonk-free athletic performance in addition to diabetes reversal.  Problem is most people don't do it right -- you need to increase saturated fat intake, particularly butter and lard, and consume more animal products so as to increase global warming and improve winters in Minnesota.  

 

Seriously, while I don't doubt that plant-based diets as promoted by Fuhrman and Ornish can and do yield excellent medical outcomes, including the reversal of atherosclerosis, I've seen no evidence that well-formulated ketogenic diets are neither healthy nor lasting.  When I ask for it, I'm invariably pointed to evidence that plant-based diets are healthy, which is great but does not answer my question.  To be fair, I don't think the long-term effects of ketogenic diets have been studied yet but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

 

One commonality between keto and Nutritarian lifestyles is the avoidance of highly refined carbs and added sugars -- I'm beginning to believe that may be one of the most impactful beneficial factors that drives success for both approaches.

 

By the way, congrats on the improvements you made in your health.

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Check this one. It has changed my life. I totally identify with the presenter. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8nCqXNMf2M

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@Daves_Not_Here,

 

When I ask for it, I'm invariably pointed to evidence that plant-based diets are healthy, which is great but does not answer my question.  To be fair, I don't think the long-term effects of ketogenic diets have been studied yet but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

 

Dave,

In the references I've given over and over, you will find evidence that the keto way of eating is not healthy. Keep in mind, most of the plant-based eating experts started with the opposite opinion. Dr. Campbell grew up on a diary farm that was in the family since the 1600's. He was going to teach the world to eat more protein. Dr. McDougall had a serious stroke when he was 18 after eating mostly meat, dairy, cigarettes and alcohol. Nathan Pritikin had a heart attack at a young age after eating poorly. Dr. Gregor's grandmother was dying of a heart attack when she was 65. She was one of the first participants in the Pritikin diet and lived to her 90's.  

 

Dr. Adkins never did any studies on the long-term effects of the ketogenic diet. Neither has the foundation. There is a good reason for this. Every study has to be approved by an ethics board. If the study will harm either the control group or the cohort, it won't be approved. 

 

There have been several studies that attempted to compare the whole-food plant based diet with other diets. The problem is for a truly valid study the participants have to switch sides. Too few of the WFPB eaters would agree to switch and get their diseases back.

 

What you are asking for -- the long-term effects of the keto diet -- isn't the responsibility of those who follow a different way of eating. Go to the Adkins Foundation and see what they offer in terms of long-term research studies. They have plenty of money to fund their own. 

 

 

 

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I just looked at the Adkin's website. It's under construction. That may change in a day or two.

 

The site says the foundation has funded 50 research projects since I think 1999. Why doesn't the site feature the results of any of these studies? Instead, the featured research tab contains studies funded by other entities.

 

In pure science, there is no such thing as failure. Right or wrong, valuable knowledge is obtained. Unfortunately, when those who fund the studies have a financial interest in the outcome, those that oppose their interest are either not funded or the results of negative studies are buried. It has gotten to the point where virtually all research is flawed because of outside interests. However the older research is still valid.

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@Daves_Not_Here, Thanks for your reply. I noticed that most Ketogenic dieters are as passionate about it as i am about the Nutritarian lifestyle. My concern is that, to use Dr. Fuhrman's expression, fat not only goes "from your lips to your hips", but also clogs our arteries and leads to heart disease and insulin resistance (which is a real danger for me, as I have a mild plaque on my arteries). In addition, fat is just that: fat, without any nutrients. The nutritarian lifestyle (I never call it "diet"), ensures that I get the greatest amount of nutrients per calorie, while it allows me to eat as much as I need. That way, my body is well nourished, without having to starve myself, ever. Also, the food is delicious and full of nutrients. 

 

I can understand that some people find it difficult to give up meat, but Dr. Fuhrman has some non-vegan recipes for people who are transitioning, or just prefer to keep meat into their diet. I still eat fish and meat, occasionally. But I do so rarely, and only as a condiment, rather than as an aliment. As far as fat, I prefer to take it from nuts and seeds, directly, which is unprocessed, rather than from animal (saturated) fat. I strongly believe and testify that the Nutritarian diet is the healthiest one. It has reversed my diseases, and I would never reverse to anything else. 🙂

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@Bogdel - thanks for providing the link -- based on watching it, I'm going to add ground flax-seeds into my diet.

 

I will try to gently challenge you -- this video supports the idea that Nutritarian eating is healthy and beneficial, which I completely agree with.  But you had asserted that keto diets are not healthy or sustainable.  As someone who, after adopting keto, has experienced a measurable improvement in health (A1c lowered from 6.0 to 5.3, ratio of total cholesterol to HDL lowered from 7.0 to 3.4, elimination of arthritis pain felt for 30+ years, etc.) and who currently plans to sustain it, I'm curious and interested in evidence to the contrary.  So when someone states "keto is not healthy or sustainable", I ask for evidence.  But when I do, I tend to get positive testimonials and evidence supporting the benefits of other diets.

 

But, flax seeds.  Gotta buy flax seeds tonight.

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@Daves_Not_Here, I am very impressed with the health results you have had from the keto diet. They are pretty much comparable to mine (A1C came down from 6.1 to 5.4, and my LDL came from 162 to 89). As far as weight, I came down from 183 to 145 +/_, which is pretty much my ideal weight. 

 

I am glad you found something that you can use from the link that I have posted. While I rarely use oil in my cooking, I do use various nuts and seeds (healthy fats) in my diet every day, including chia, flax, sesame, walnuts, almonds, cashews, etc. If fats are essential to the keto diet, I guess that's the keto section that I happen to share (smiling). 

 

Truth is, I read very little about the keto diet. All I "heard" about it is that it is based on low carbs, and lots of animal fat. The low carb, I definitely share, but I replaced them with G-BOMBS (Greens - Beans, Onions, Mushrooms, Berries, and Seeds - including nuts). What can be wrong with that? They are all 100% safe and full of nutrients(smiling). My question is, how is the keto diet securing the nutrients necessary to a healthy diet? 

 

By the way, have you read any of Dr. Fuhrman's books (i.e. "Eat to Live", or "Eat for Health")?

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@GershonSurge -- I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to develop my sense of humor. This never gets old.

 

Forgive me, but I must razz you thusly: your argument continues to be of the form "The Answer I Didn't Give You Is Embedded in the Non-Answer I Gave You." If you are going to dogmatically assert that "X is Bad", the onus is on you to support it with something more reductionist than "Y is Good" and "visit the Library of Congress and read all the books".

 

Point of order on Atkins -- he promoted a low-carb, high protein diet, not a ketogenic diet. Only his induction phase was ketogenic. The ketogenic diet as currently formulated by Phinney and Volek has lower protein and higher fat than Atkins (carbs + protein = 25%, fat = 75%).

 

You assert that Atkins did not perform long-term studies on ketogenic diets due to ethics board approval issues. What?? Is that really true?  There are currently dozens of studies involving ketogenic diets underway around the world. Are all of these also ethical violations?

 

You also assert that "for a truly valid study the participants have to switch sides". What??? The participants have to switch sides? When did this protocol get added? Is there even a name for it, like "double blind" or "peer reviewed"? Can you name a single study in any field of study wherein participants were required to switch sides? Or that was invalidated due to the failure to switch sides? And studies that attempted to compare diets were thwarted because participants refused to switch sides and get their diseases back? What ????

 

As to Campbell, McDougall, Pritikin, and Gregor's life histories, I don't think they previously advocated or even studied ketogenic diets, so their adoption of a plant-based approach (Y is Good) does not support the idea that keto is unhealthy (X is Bad). Again, I think their plant-based approaches are proven to yield beneficial outcomes.

 

Final razz - you said, "What you are asking for -- the long-term effects of the keto diet" - What????? That's not what I'm asking. I am asking for you to support your contention that "the keto way of eating is not healthy". To just dogmatically make that assertion, without any supporting evidence, is a classic illustration of the Bare Assertion Fallacy, Ipse Dixit.

 

Please take this in the spirit given -- you have provided a wealth of information valuable to anyone here that is looking to improve their health and longevity.

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@Bogdelwrote:

... 

My question is, how is the keto diet securing the nutrients necessary to a healthy diet? 

 

By the way, have you read any of Dr. Fuhrman's books (i.e. "Eat to Live", or "Eat for Health")?


@Bogdel - thanks for the encouraging words on the improvement I experienced.  I may get to meet my grandchildren after all!

 

I think what keto and Nutritarian have in common is the avoidance of highly processed carbs and empty calories.  In fact, I think everything included in a Nutritarian lifestyle can be eaten in a keto diet.  We eat some carbs, and we should get the most nutritionally dense carbs we can.  By sticking with low glycemic index/load carbs such as spinach, avocado, kale, chard, cabbage, onions, cauliflower, peppers, asparagus, garlic, leeks, and artichoke, we get our nutrients from whole foods, not supplements.   I eat more vegetables now than before keto (now 15 to 20 oz per day).  I just try to limit starchy carbs like corn, rice and potatoes to avoid blood sugar and insulin spikes.

 

Keto folks treat fat as essential and our primary source of energy, consisting of 75% of our intake.  While we don't avoid animal fat, we also eat coconut oil, olive oil, nuts, avocado, and fish oil.  Just as eskimos can distinguish between dozens of snow varieties, keto fanatics differentiate between saturated, monounsaturated, and polyunsaturated fats.  We avoid trans fats and limit Omega-6 fats. A half and half mixture of butter and olive oil approximates the composition of our adipose tissue, which is what we strive for.  Medium Chain Triglyceride (MCT) Oil is an entire discussion.  I'm trying to increase my Omega-3 consumption which is why your link was so helpful -- I have no flaxseed in my cupboard. 

 

I have read Eat to Live, but not Eat for Health yet.  I have two close friends who strongly advocate and live the Nutritarian lifestyle, so when I visit them, that's what I eat while they razz me about keto.  Love it!

 

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That makes a lot of sense, @Daves_Not_Here. I am happy to know that you eat all those nutritious vegetables. So, the main difference between the nutritarian and the keto diet is in the source of fat. I still don't understand how that acts on human body, biochemically, for the keto followers. I am thinking about the insulin resistance and the cholesterol. But sounds like it is doing the job for you. Thanks for helping me understand the keto a bit better. 

You probably told me already... How long have you done keto? 

Glad to know that you have read the Eat to Live book. 

 

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@Bogdel - thanks for your interest in the topic and indulging my long-winded answers!  By the way, while I'm enthusiastic about keto for myself, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for others.

 

I've been more or less eating keto for about 5 months.  Starting 9 months ago, I started losing weight by eating low-carb.  4 months in, a friend who eats ketogenically saw my weight loss and explained how keto had worked for her, so I decided to give it a try.  I found it lived up to its hype, at least for me.

 

Here is a Talk by Dr. Stephen Phinney , who coauthored The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living with Jeff Volek.  The book is the definitive resource for ketogenic eating.  I think his book and lectures are fascinating, even for those who wouldn't attempt a keto lifestyle.

 

There are several reasons I don't recommend it to others -- the main reason is that it's unorthodox and has little support in the mainstream medical community or society, so you have to stand up to people telling you you're crazy.  And, it's extreme in that you are forcing yourself to change how you metabolize energy.  Then there is a challenging adaptation period that takes from 2 to 4 weeks (faster and easier if you read the book) which takes some determination to persevere through.  Lastly, you need to be pretty attentive to stay in nutritional ketosis.

 

All that said, why would anyone do it?  At the risk of sounding overly enamored, I have increased mental clarity, lower appetite, less sleep required, higher energy, and lower inflammation.  But the craziest affect for me is bonk-free athletic endurance, meaning I can cycle or ski all day on an empty stomach.  OK, I'll get off my soapbox!  Thanks again!

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The original question was: "What do you think of the Keto diet?". You would therefore expect answers from people who have either followed said diet (and found it was not for them) or are following it. Instead, most of the answers seem to be, in essence: "God forbid, I haven’t done it, but I know for a fact it’s totally unhealthy, and my own way of eating, which is definitely the absolute best, is without questions what everyone else should be following".

 

As I see it, a diet is merely a mean to an end. The end is to maintain your weight in a healthy range (or at least get closer to that range) and to have good health markers. There are many different approaches to eating that can do this. And diet isn’t the only mean to that end: other lifestyle factors play a role too.

 

I’m a "middle-of-the-road" type of person: I neither follow a LC/HF diet, nor a HC/LF one. Fats are not the devil, but carbs aren’t either: I’m doing fine eating both within my caloric requirements. Same with foods that are plant- and animal-based: I eat both. I have no problem with people choosing the more extreme options: if it works for them, why should I be concerned?

 

I’d like to point to the transformation story recently reported by @nfinity. I personally wouldn’t have followed the same approach (low-carb) as him, but OTOH I’ve never been in a situation in which I would have needed to lose 150 pounds of extra weight. The approach he chose clearly worked extraordinarily well for him (though he didn’t do it with diet alone), and that’s what matters IMO. 

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@Daves_Not_Here,

 

I want to put something out in the open. When I say something about a way of eating, I realize quite clearly that we are talking about a life, health and death issue. I am not interested in winning a forensics debate based on style debating procedure. Your request for me to prove a keto diet is not sustainable is irrelevant. If you like the keto diet, prove that it is sustainable for the long term. I'm not going to address every type of diet people come up with. 

 

If you are going to make claims through staccatoing questions, I'm not going to play that game. Just know that you are spreading false information in a way that I call "lying by questions." Of course, you can't lie with a question, but the effect is the same. For instance, you say you doubt that the doctors I reference even studied or followed the keto diet? Well, you are wrong. At least two of them have testified before Congress about the harmful effects. Dr. Campbell has testified before Congress many times. 

 

You don't understand how studies are done and which ones are valid for determining treatment plans, and then you act surprised when you find out. Good theatrics, but not good science. The final step in determining if a drug, food, etc., provides any tangible benefit is intervening by adding these to the diet so see if improvement occurs and then taking them away to see if the condition returns. The study also has to last long enough to see if there are long-term effects. We are talking decades, not weeks like many studies to. It's not enough to see if adding something reduces markers of diseases. To be truly valid, it has to reduce mortality in the long term. The final study done in drug approval is a double blind clinical intervention. Unfortunately, the FDA is not always demanding this type of study anymore or the duration is too short to learn everything. So we end up with diabetes drugs that increase mortality with the blessing of the FDA. You see, to be considered effective, they only have to reduce blood sugar. Decreasing mortality is not a concern.

 

I'll give an example. Vitamin E can reduce the number of heart attacks. However, it increases mortality by increasing other disease. Beta-carotene in plant form can help cure cancer. However, in supplement form, it greatly increases the growth of cancer. Both of them are still on the market. 

 

You claim I'm asking you to read the Library of Congress, which is clearly untrue. I've studied, not just read, every book I'm recommended. I've searched for every study referenced in the books and read the ones that are freely available. The reason I ask people to read the source information is I don't have perfect recall. I also may not accurately represent what the authors meant. I certainly can't include the context in which it was said. If you are willing to bet your life on superficial analysis, that's your choice. But I'm not willing to bet my life or make life and death recommendations to others without doing the research. If you are unwilling to invest your time to make a decision, that's your choice. But don't try to refute me with fancy word without reading these sources.

 

I've noticed you are susceptible to reductionist claims. For instance, you are all ready to run out and buy some flax seed. The other day, it was inulin. Whole flax seed is indigestible. You would want flax meal to get the full effects. Don't believe me? Eat a handful and watch for it in the next few weeks. It can take that long for meat eaters. Inulin is present in most plants. You don't need a list of the nine plants or whatever with the most. If you keep reading, you will be taking dozens of pills a day, most of which can harm you in some way. A supplement can improve a blood test while at the same time causing damage in other ways. Supplements don't have to be proven safe because they are considered a food by the FDA. 

 

You seem to hear what you want to hear while having bacon and chicken wings for breakfast. That's your choice, but it's not a healthy one. You want proof? I don't keep a list of references in a file. You will find it in the sources I recommend. The effects of this dose of fat are immediate and often fatal. Sorry to be blunt, but this isn't about feelings... it's about life and death.

 

I know people don't like how I phrase things. It's more pleasant to be agreeable and say things like "eat a variety of foods in moderation." That's generally the answer that will get the solution check. People like to hear good news about their bad habits. Moderation kills. Oh, there are healthy moderate eaters. That's how statistics work. After all, only about 40% of American males will die from heart disease. There are even healthy junk food eaters. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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At the risk of entering a contentious debate, I thought I might contribute at least a bit. I also fall into the camp that believes that low carb high animal protein/fat diets are extremely dangerous. Please note that I didn't say ketogenic. Apparently, ketogenic diets based on plant proteins are actually healthy! Please see the short video from my guru-of-choice, Dr.  Greger.

 

https://youtu.be/bmDUnFd6UX4

 

Dr. Greger, like myself and others including the legendary Dr. T Colin Campbell, have reviewed the evidence and concluded that the traditional Atkins diet with lots of bacon and eggs is very dangerous. Dr. Greger even maintains a website devoted to debunking Atkins at:

 

www.atkinsexposed.com

 

Just my $0.02 but ultimately I believe what GershonSurge said that "everyone loves to hear good news about their bad habits". Dr. Greger also like to say "yes you can lose weight on Atkins, but the goal here is not to fit into a skinnier casket!" At any rate I certainly don't mean to offend; just hopefully help someone on their journey. Good luck everyone!

 

 

 

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At the risk of entering a contentious debate, I thought I might contribute at least a bit. I also fall into the camp that believes that low carb high animal protein/fat diets are extremely dangerous. Please note that I didn't say ketogenic. Apparently, ketogenic diets based on plant proteins are actually healthy! Please see the short video from my guru-of-choice, Dr.  Greger.

 

https://youtu.be/bmDUnFd6UX4

 

Dr. Greger, like myself and others including the legendary Dr. T Colin Campbell, have reviewed the evidence and concluded that the traditional Atkins diet with lots of bacon and eggs is very dangerous. Dr. Greger even maintains a website devoted to debunking Atkins at:

 

http://atkinsexposed.org/index.html

 

Just my $0.02 but ultimately I believe what GershonSurge said that "everyone loves to hear good news about their bad habits". Dr. Greger also like to say "yes you can lose weight on Atkins, but the goal here is not to fit into a skinnier casket!" At any rate I certainly don't mean to offend; just hopefully help someone on their journey. Good luck everyone!

 

 

 

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I like Dr. McGregor and he is one of the Doctors I follow.

 

Let's look a little deeper at this study. You can find it here. Go all the way to near bottom, and you can see that Solae, Loblaw and some others funded the study. Solae makes soy products. Loblaw is just a grocery and other stuff store. See if you can detect how the study was structured to make the soy products look better. 

 

Let's examine the diets. The regular diet was what the people ate before the study. It resulted in a group whose average total cholesterol  was 261 for the both groups. This was reduced to 250 for the high carb group and 235 for the low carb group. (I converted to mg/dl.)

 

The Low Carb group substitute mock vegetable fats for meat fats. The high carb group was lacto-ovo vegetarian. Milk products and eggs do much more to increase cholesterol levels than meat. The actual mechanism is not precisely known. In other words, it may be the meat protein that increases the risk more than the fat. 

 

Neither one of these changes would have made a significant dent in their risk. Keep in mind 32% of the heart attacks occur in people with total cholesterol between 150 and 200. 200 is considered "normal" in the United States.

 

The other numbers are really irrelevant. 

 

It pays to read studies that have occurred in the past 100 years or so in order that you can detect when someone is repeating an old experiment. In 1980, Nathan Pritikin published some private papers outlining his research on various studies. You can find these on Dr. McDougall's site. The study found you could lower total cholesterol to about 200 by drinking a cup (maybe it was a half cup) of corn oil a day. However, it did not reduce the risk of heart attacks. 

 

There is more. The Framingham study started in 1948 with 15,000 participants. Since then, there have been two more cohorts consisting of the children and grandchildren. In that whole time, there has not been a single death from a heart attack for people whose cholesterol was below 150, a goal easily attainable by most eating a whole food plant based diet. Dr. Campbell elaborated on this. Some people won't get that low, but as long as they stick to the way of eating, they are safe.

 

Had this study compared their low-carb diet to the WFPB way of eating, the chances of dying from a heart attack would have been infinitely higher in comparison.  

 

Back to Dr. McGregor. Many people transition away from meat to a vegetarian diet by substituting mock meat products for meat. It's how I started. Now, I don't even try to imitate meat, but if I did, I'd make my own vege-burgers out of beans and some other stuff. 

 

 

 

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